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religon
Topic Started: Jan 12 2007, 06:48 PM (2,151 Views)
Starlake
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Nah
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I don't have a religion, and I'm not atheist. I believe whatever I want.
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blade-slinger
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Silent Song
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Storm the Chao
January 13, 2007 11:05 AM
I don't have a religion, and I'm not atheist. I believe whatever I want.

I'd say that is probably what you could say about me.......I like to stay neutral in most things so I just don't really have a religion. :lol:
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Aaron
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A blast from the past.

Lutheran, and yes I am religious..
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Curst Saden
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One of the Last True Trekkies
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cvn-tv-dip
 
I think you're really gullible.


And where do you get that from?

cvn-tv-dip
 
So just because you think it's right, it's right? Then there's no point of anyone saying anything to help you when someone finds you going astray.


In our many arguments, i have said that as far as religious beliefs go, we're all right. therefore, it is right when i think it. And shouldn't we leave the "astray" buisness to God and tend to more important matters?

cvn-tv-dip
 
Before we even get to my personal beliefs (if needed for this discussion), when did I say that?


That is how I interpreted your paragraph. Perhaps i mis-read it, but what i got from it is that communication must be used to save people.

cvn-tv-dip
 
See, you manipulate everything I say to make it an attack on you. It's not because I discriminate against you, but everything you've said that I read was always like this.


I DON'T manipulate what you say.

And perhaps i'm arguing a little more fiecely than usual because i have debated with you before, and our dealings always wind up like this, no matter what we're debating.

cvn-tv-dip
 
Converting people is basically convincing people. People have ears and voices for a reason. They're allowed to convince. Whether you agree or not is your decision. But that doesn't mean you can't attempt to convince.

You simply don't get the concept. I used the "someone drowning in a lake" analogy and I used another one to simplify the matters even more. And you always misunderstand my message and respond, "What if I don't believe so?" Do you think someone that cares about you is not even going to try at least once just because you don't believe so? Maybe you will after you hear, or maybe you won't. 


I get the concept just fine. I'm touched that someone would care about my spiritual well-being, but i say that the people are swimming a different stroke, not drowning. Their swimming styles are different from yours, so you walk up to them and say "perhaps a different stroke will save you".

How people "swim" defines a pert of who they are. Give them an unwanted and or uneeded swimming lesson, and you destroy that part of them.

Like i said, the posts are going to get REALLY big from now on........
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cvn-tv-dip
Member
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1.
Curst Saden
 

In our many arguments, i have said that as far as religious beliefs go, we're all right. therefore, it is right when i think it.

cvn-tv-dip
 
I think you're really gullible.

2.
Curst Saden
 
And shouldn't we leave the "astray" buisness to God and tend to more important matters?

What, exactly? What is more important?

Do you realize what the consenquences are for being "astray"?

3.
Curst Saden
 
I DON'T manipulate what you say.

Yes, you do. Read your own posts instead of simply reading mine.

4.
Curst Saden
 
And perhaps i'm arguing a little more fiecely than usual because i have debated with you before, and our dealings always wind up like this, no matter what we're debating.

cvn-tv-dip
 
See, you manipulate everything I say to make it an attack on you. It's not because I discriminate against you, but everything you've said that I read was always like this.

I simply respond. You're the first one to say it. The reason I respond is because I feel the need to state logically what needs to be proclaimed. Did you think that no one would respond when you call someone "evil" for attempting to convince, trying to help? JosephY left a question, so I answered.

5.
Curst Saden
 
I get the concept just fine. I'm touched that someone would care about my spiritual well-being, but i say that the people are swimming a different stroke, not drowning. Their swimming styles are different from yours, so you walk up to them and say "perhaps a different stroke will save you".

cvn-tv-dip
 
Do you think someone that cares about you is not even going to try at least once just because you don't believe so? Maybe you will after you hear, or maybe you won't.

What I've said here already responds to your reply. My point was that if Person A sees Person B drowning, Person A will try to save the other one.

Person's B's beliefs affect whether or not he or she accepts it. It's not Person B's beliefs that determine whether or not Person A will offer help. That's up to what Person A believes.
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ErdeKaiser
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I Have Returned
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Don't know how you'd say me...
Dad's an atheist
Mom wanted me baptisted
And don't have a view on if god does or doesn't exist, it's neutral on that scale.
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Nir
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Former IF Support Staff
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Not a Christian, not an Athiest, just a Jew.
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Starlake
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Nah
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
blade-slinger
January 13, 2007 12:48 PM
Storm the Chao
January 13, 2007 11:05 AM
I don't have a religion, and I'm not atheist. I believe whatever I want.

I'd say that is probably what you could say about me.......I like to stay neutral in most things so I just don't really have a religion. :lol:

I prefer not to look into such stuff that doesn't really matter to my life right now, which includes HOW we all got here. So I'm not neutral on religion. I just hate it, because to me it's a concept that really doesn't matter right now. It mattered back then, yes, but not now.

However, I do believe there is a God, but I despise both Scientology and Christianity [and as a disclaimer, I say that I do not like the IDEA of, and the CHURCHES of. I am in no way insulting anyone by saying I dislike a religion. I dislike the practices and beliefs, not the people].
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Pete B
Member
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Atheist
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FusedFox
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The End Has Passed
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I'm a practicing agnostic. In fact, just last night I spent several hours pondering if there was a God and if there wasn't, then what possible meaning of life could there be?

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Deltasix
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Me
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Atheist, but with Buddhist leanings. Atheism is my faith, what I know for a fact is....nothing, so Agnostic as well.
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Paper
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Agnostic Theist. I believe in God, and nothing else, but I also accept the possibility that such a God may not exist, or may not be one entity.

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So just because you think it's right, it's right?

Hey, what makes you any more right than him? I like Curst Saden point of view. What he is saying is that it is ok to share your beliefs with others, and if they seem interested to point them to the bible, but if not, then don't shove it in their faces. He is more likely to get me to read the bible than you.

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Do you realize what the consequences are for being "astray"?

Yes. And I don't believe them for one second. I respect that you do, but I'd prefer you to keep your beliefs in hell for someone who wants to hear them. Curst Saden allows people to make an informed decision of their own, and then respects such a decision. If you believe in Jesus, then you would believe that he died to forgive all sins. If this is a concept you can't grasp then, in my opinion, you aren't really a Christian.

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Converting people is basically convincing people. People have ears and voices for a reason. They're allowed to convince.

People also have freedom. People should be allowed to be free to choose without being threatened because of what other people believe. No offence, but I'd label you a religious zealot, the very sort of person who has become "gullible" to the Church's fanatical side and can no longer use reason to explain religion.

I have a friend who is a Christian, and is also against homosexual practice. However, he has never tried to convert me or tell me that I'm going to hell. He isn't opposed to gays having civil unions. He believes that people have the freedom to choose what is right for them, and so as long as people don't try to harm others, he isn't going to complain.

Better a good person than a bad Christian.
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cvn-tv-dip
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Quote:
 

Quote:
 
Converting people is basically convincing people. People have ears and voices for a reason. They're allowed to convince.

People also have freedom. People should be allowed to be free to choose without being threatened because of what other people believe. No offence, but I'd label you a religious zealot, the very sort of person who has become "gullible" to the Church's fanatical side and can no longer use reason to explain religion.

I have a friend who is a Christian, and is also against homosexual practice. However, he has never tried to convert me or tell me that I'm going to hell. He isn't opposed to gays having civil unions. He believes that people have the freedom to choose what is right for them, and so as long as people don't try to harm others, he isn't going to complain.

Better a good person than a bad Christian.


All right, you're the one going too far here. If I'm really a "zealot" as you say, then that should come from how I hold strongly onto my beliefs, not how you accuse me of going that far before I even did it.

People have freedom, yes. That's exactly the point I was trying not to nullify this whole time. I understand that the person might not take whatever I say to that person. In every single one of my posts, I never have forgotten the fact that people have free will. They can believe or not believe in what I tell them.

But I have freedom of speech. If I see that someone is not doing something right, in my view, then I can tell them so. They might think differently. But that only affects whether they accept or reject. That does not affect whether I talk or not. My beliefs affect that.

I don't see how you jumped to calling me a religious zealot from that. That's prejudice against someone who tried his best to be honest about my viewpoint and yet allow room for anyone to be able to respond out of his or her free will. I'm sure you're tired of "those Christians" who tell you that you're going to hell if you don't believe. You think I don't know how you feel?

And yet I know how those Christians feel, also. I can't stress this enough; if someone sees someone else drown, are you going to just stand there and see the person drown just because he or she doesn't think so? No, you want to help that person because you care about his or her life. And I already know, for the 3rd time now, that Curst or you would say, "What if I think I'm not drowning, but swimming?" That's your point of view, and that affects how you would act. That doesn't affect how the person trying to save you would act. The one offering help believes one way and reacts with that way.

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So just because you think it's right, it's right?

Hey, what makes you any more right than him? I like Curst Saden point of view. What he is saying is that it is ok to share your beliefs with others, and if they seem interested to point them to the bible, but if not, then don't shove it in their faces. He is more likely to get me to read the bible than you.

You're completely misunderstanding the core of my argument. I already responded to what you just said right here.

Let's reexamine the situation.

I said the doctor might prescribe a medicine to a patient, because he saw that the patient is ill. Curst said, "What if this medicine is too strong for me? I won't take it."

What did the patient do? Reject the offer. He did not stop the doctor from offering it in the first place.

If you said that it's okay to share beliefs with others, why are you attacking me this way? That doesn't disprove anything I said. When you share something with someone else, isn't there a chance that the listener agrees? Wouldn't you like it if someone did that? Don't we convince others not just for religious things, but small things as well, like, "Try this food," or "Why don't we check out that mall"? What can the listener do? Accept or reject.

That's exactly what I said, that the talker can say something to convince, and the listener can accept or reject. So just what are you accusing me of? I pointed out this to Curst because he said that you can't tell anyone "Listen to me so you won't drown!", effectively taking away the privileges of convincing. Converting is simply a form of convincing. If I can't convince, I can't try to help, suggest, recommend, offer, or share anything at all, because you're saying that violates freedom. Why do politicians talk, and why do activists talk? Why do you tell me anything in your post? Aren't you convincing me, "You're wrong, you're going too strong, you're a zealot, why can't you see that people have freedom"? Did I stop you from telling me that? No, I simply responded. You can respond as well.
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Paper
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You CHOOSE to read it. If you felt I was too strong, you could have simply stopped reading my post and ignored it. This is exactly what I do with those who try to stop me from "drowning".

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If I'm really a "zealot" as you say, then that should come from how I hold strongly onto my beliefs

No, "zealotism" as it were comes from not shutting up about your beliefs when people don't want to hear. That said, I am happy to hear your beliefs on this forum, and I'm not sure if zealotism definitely applies to you, it just seems like it does since you seem to be implying that you go around trying to save people. Of course, zealotism is a completely fictions concept I invented in order to describe a concept in a negative way.

You only need to tell people once that they are doing something wrong. Then it is your duty to follow the proper lawful procedure by contacting the police. Harrasing them is taking the law into your own hands. If what you are harrasing them for is not part of our law, then you should leave them to their own business. If they are interested, then they can read the bible.

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That's prejudice against

That's racist against me. Ok, it's not really, but I though it'd be fun to have a generic statement in there.

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I'm sure you're tired of "those Christians" who tell you that you're going to hell if you don't believe. You think I don't know how you feel?

Yes, I think you don't. Comparing drowning to other issues is void, since drowning implies an acceptance that something is wrong in the first place. Instead you should adopt the attitude that if it doesn't harm you, don't get involved unless your offer of help is accepted.

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If you said that it's okay to share beliefs with others, why are you attacking me this way?

There is a difference between sharing your beliefs, and forcing your beliefs onto others by threatening and penalising them. I'm not accusing you, I'm merely stating my opinion that zealotism is brought on by fanaticism.
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cvn-tv-dip
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Quote:
 
You CHOOSE to read it. If you felt I was too strong, you could have simply stopped reading my post and ignored it. This is exactly what I do with those who try to stop me from "drowning".

That's merely a form of rejecting, only you cut it short.

But do you assume that you're going to do that when someone tells you something? No. You're going to listen to somebody at some point in your life for some kind of issue, right? And if you agree with that person and find out that he or she has taught you something valuable to you, wouldn't that be considered "help" to you?

There we go. Converting - convincing - is not "evil" as Curst put it. And I just answered JosephY's question, "How is converting helping?"
Quote:
 
No, "zealotism" as it were comes from not shutting up about your beliefs when people don't want to hear. That said, I am happy to hear your beliefs on this forum, and I'm not sure if zealotism definitely applies to you, it just seems like it does since you seem to be implying that you go around trying to save people. Of course, zealotism is a completely fictions concept I invented in order to describe a concept in a negative way.

You only need to tell people once that they are doing something wrong. Then it is your duty to follow the proper lawful procedure by contacting the police. Harrasing them is taking the law into your own hands. If what you are harrasing them for is not part of our law, then you should leave them to their own business. If they are interested, then they can read the bible.

Right, you should not harass people; that's basically forcing them. I'm not forcing anyone, but merely telling them this and offering them a choice; take it or leave it.

My whole point here is answer to the question, "How is converting help?" and response to Curst's view, "Converting is evil." The point I'm making here is that if conversion is really evil, then any form of telling someone something other than the listener's beliefs would be considered evil, since any change of opinions due to outside influence can be considered "conversion." And also, I'm explaining that you can tell someone something with a helpful intent, to convince someone. The receiver might not accept it, but that doesn't automatically mean the talker wasn't trying to help.

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Yes, I think you don't. Comparing drowning to other issues is void, since drowning implies an acceptance that something is wrong in the first place. Instead you should adopt the attitude that if it doesn't harm you, don't get involved unless your offer of help is accepted.

Drowning is my point of view. It may not be yours.

I see someone drowning. I call out to help the person. This is done in respect to my point of view.

The person receiving this message does not think he or she is drowning. He or she says, "I'm not drowning, so I don't need help." This is done in respect to his or her point of view.

I say, you dismiss. Simple. We both acted in accordance to our beliefs.

Let's say that even if you weren't drowning, to me it looks as if you were. How would I act? If you tell me personally that you're not drowning, then okay, you've expressed your point of view, to convince me that you're not drowning after all. But if I'm not allowed to say it in the first place, that undermines my beliefs, doesn't it? I'm trying to communicate. Prohibit that and communication becomes useless.

I do understand that the person might not believe it to be true. But, think about it. How would communication flow if we don't even try to convince? For one thing, how would I even know what you believe if you don't tell me the answer, to accept or reject? (if you do tell me the answer, then you've basically listened to me and responded) Honestly, I really consider how the listener might feel and believe when I say these things, because I form my responses based on such. That's why it's called response/reply. I hope you see that.
Quote:
 
There is a difference between sharing your beliefs, and forcing your beliefs onto others by threatening and penalising them. I'm not accusing you, I'm merely stating my opinion that zealotism is brought on by fanaticism.


But why share beliefs if there's no point? I want you to compare sharing beliefs with sharing smaller details. For instance, I can tell you that the door to the house is to the north. You can believe me or not. But I can tell you that, right? Convincing people in terms of beliefs is done on a larger scale.

I'm not forcing anyone. You're always free to disagree. (very important: you're also free to agree) Are you saying that I should keep my mouth shut before I even know what you believe in? That's like telling me to not tell you where the door is, when I don't know what you think about where that door is located.
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