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Palestinian Israeli Conflict
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Topic Started: Aug 22 2005, 08:14 PM (905 Views)
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Clapton
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Aug 24 2005, 08:27 PM
Post #16
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Also known as Feare, Aoine, Slowhand
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- sirtfireball
- Aug 24 2005, 01:48 PM
Islamic terrorists aren't political and want to kill all non-Islamics???
Then why aren't they bombing Switzerland, Greenland, Norway etc....
I think you need to re-think your ideas :confused:
^o)
Who said that they aren't their next target? There isn't enough of these muslims to do a world-wide strike.
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sirtfireball
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Aug 25 2005, 03:26 PM
Post #17
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- Feare
- Aug 25 2005, 12:27 AM
- sirtfireball
- Aug 24 2005, 01:48 PM
Islamic terrorists aren't political and want to kill all non-Islamics???
Then why aren't they bombing Switzerland, Greenland, Norway etc....
I think you need to re-think your ideas :confused:
^o) Who said that they aren't their next target? There isn't enough of these muslims to do a world-wide strike.
Your 'logic' put a smile on my face and a feeling of sympathy for you in my heart :clown:
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Stpfx
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Aug 26 2005, 03:28 PM
Post #18
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I thought this was on Palistine/Israel not on the islamic faith...?
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Glitch
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Aug 26 2005, 03:48 PM
Post #19
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First of all, I'll clear up the situation during WWI with Britain.
Basically, back then, the land of Palestine was a British colony. During WWI, Britain promised the Arabs that they would hand over the land to them if the Arabs helped them fight the Central powers. So the Arabs did help out. However, after the war was over, Britain decided to break the deal. This was probably due to the high amount of anti-Semitism going around at the time. Basically, Britain wanted to get rid of their Jews and did so humanely by letting them go back to Israel. Now, you can imagine how pissed the Arabs are over this, and since then, they've been fighting to regain control over Palestine.
My idea for peace in Israel is that the US stop siding with Israel all the time so we stop looking like we're anti-Islam, and let them solve their own problems. If things become too violent, we could always step back in and mediate the problem.
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Clapton
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Aug 26 2005, 04:18 PM
Post #20
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Also known as Feare, Aoine, Slowhand
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- sirtfireball
- Aug 25 2005, 02:26 PM
- Feare
- Aug 25 2005, 12:27 AM
- sirtfireball
- Aug 24 2005, 01:48 PM
Islamic terrorists aren't political and want to kill all non-Islamics???
Then why aren't they bombing Switzerland, Greenland, Norway etc....
I think you need to re-think your ideas :confused:
^o) Who said that they aren't their next target? There isn't enough of these muslims to do a world-wide strike.
Your 'logic' put a smile on my face and a feeling of sympathy for you in my heart :clown:
That wasn't very nice, I don't think you would of enjoyed it if I told you that eh?
And yes, I do agree that this more politics than religon... Everyone makes mistakes, no need to make fun of them for it.
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Glitch
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Aug 26 2005, 04:23 PM
Post #21
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- Feare
- Aug 26 2005, 03:18 PM
And yes, I do agree that this more politics than religon...
Indeed it is. All religions think that other religions are wrong. All religions think that other religions should be wiped out and their followers converted. However, in our modern world, we are taught that people have their own beliefs and it's their choice. This isn't the case with Islamic fundementalists nowadays, largely because they're so pissed at the entire Western world for mistreating them throughout the past millenium.
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Clapton
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Aug 26 2005, 04:28 PM
Post #22
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Also known as Feare, Aoine, Slowhand
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- Glitch
- Aug 26 2005, 03:23 PM
- Feare
- Aug 26 2005, 03:18 PM
And yes, I do agree that this more politics than religon...
Indeed it is. All religions think that other religions are wrong. All religions think that other religions should be wiped out and their followers converted. However, in our modern world, we are taught that people have their own beliefs and it's their choice. This isn't the case with Islamic fundementalists nowadays, largely because they're so pissed at the entire Western world for mistreating them throughout the past millenium.
Thanks for putting it in a nice fasion Glitch, at least I learned something out of it. I agree, everyone has their own beliefs, though a lot of people still don't respect that.
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gprime
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Aug 26 2005, 08:16 PM
Post #23
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Being a Jew whose been Reform, Egaletarian, Conservadox, Orthodox, and Kahanist, now non-affiliated, I think I can bring a someone unique perspective to the matter.
I have a blog elsewhere (PM me for the link) which I just started. One of the issues is on this very subject.
So since its relevant, I'll repost it below:
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Why the Evacuation Was Wrong and The Palestinians Have No Claim to the Land:
To anybody who has bothered to scratch the surface of the issue, it should be clear that the "Palestinians" have no legal claim to Gaza and the West Bank, let alone pre-67' Israeli land. But, since some, if not most, of you are convinced otherwise, its time I outlined it for you.
Looking back at the bible, we see that the Canaanites resided in the land. There is no scientific or religious evidence that shows another group of people living there beforehand. It is agreed upon by Jews, Christians and Muslims that Abraham is the first Jew. And, since all three religions recognize the Torah's legitimacy on some level, then they must all recognize its content. In Sefer Bre**** Chapter 26, verses 4 and 5, Hashem says, " I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands". The language is so clear that some Christian groups actively support installing a Theocracy in Israel and expelling the Muslims. In fact, the controversial Rabbi and former MK Rabbi Meir Kahane TZ"L received a portion of his campaign money from Gentiles even though he advocated the expulsion of all non-Jews from Israel. Now its true that the Muslims believe that they have a religious claim to it as well. But let us look at theirs. While Judaism is one of the world's oldest religion, and the faith off of which Islam and Christianity broke, Islam is the newest major religion, having been founded in 622 CE. (Israel became a Jewish nation in 1312 BCE). As such, their claim must be viewed with greater suspicion. And their roots come into play as well. Islam is a faith that was spawned by the descendants of Abraham's outcast elder child Ishmael. So then, we must consider the notion that the its insertion into the Koran is vindictive in nature, and designed to make allowance for revenge against the Jews. Don't buy it? Well in Quran Sura 9:29-30 it wishes death upon all Jews. So its clear that they are less than friendly. Still not enough. The how about these quotes from Hadith (another major Islamic text):
'O Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and hypocrites and deal rigorously with them; their home shall be Hell' (IX.73).
'O believers, fight the infidels who dwell around you, and deal rigorously with them' (IX.124).
'Do not yield to unbelievers, but strive against them in a strenuous Jihad' (XXV.54).
'Fight for the cause of Allah with the devotion due to Him' (XXII.77).
'Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah with your wealth and your person's (IX.41).
'Fight against the (idolaters) until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme' (II.189 and VIII.40).
'Fighting is obligatory for you, and you dislike it. But you may dislike a thing although it is good for you, and love a thing although it is bad for you' (II.212).
'Allah loves those who fight for His cause' (I.XI.4).
'The true believers are those...who fight for His cause with their wealth and their persons' (XLIX.15).
'When you meet the unbelievers, smite at their necks; ' (XLVII.4).
'Allah has given those that fight with their goods and their persons a higher rank than those who stay at home. He has promised all a good reward, but far richer is the recompense of those who fight for Him; rank of His own bestowal, forgiveness and mercy' (IV. 97).
'Those who...fought in the path of God have the hope of the mercy of God...' (II.215).
'Those that . . . fought and died for My cause shall be forgiven their sins and admitted to gardens watered by running streams...' (III.194).
'As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish...He will admit them to the Paradise' (XLVII.5).
So then, its pretty clear from the religious end that they have no claim, and it is a result of their warmongering nature that they covet this land.
There is also the UN issue. In 1948, the UN voted for the creation of Jewish and Palestinian states. Israel was established. But the Palestinian land was split by the Egyptians and the Jordanians. And never once did the Palestinians complain. In 1967, Israel once again was forced to fend off the regional powers. But this time, they made great advances. They took back Jerusalem, the Golan Heights, Gaza and the West Bank. They could have easily conquered all four countries that attacked them. But, not wanting to take such severe actions, they accepted the surrender of their enemies. Having won these Syrian, Jordanian, and Egyptian lands at war, they are clearly Israeli land. But as soon as Israel took over, these Palestinians cried foul. While they were content to be stateless before, they suddenly decided they wanted a state. Thus, their claims are to be ignored.
Now let us take a gander at the strategic/non-religious side of it. Throughout history, the Jews have been uprooted from their homes, abused and killed. From the Spanish Inquisition to the Holocaust, we've managed to survive only yo receive more abuse and punishment. Would it not be wise for us to have our own where we're free of persecution? But it is to the benefit of the International community that Israel exists. In spite of the fact that Israel is continually abused by its Western "Allies", they remain the West's sole source of regional intelligence and only loyal ally ready to assist as needed. Without Israel, the West would be left high and dry. And for that matter, they'd be in a much worse position. Remember when Iraq had a nuclear reactor in the 80's? Israel destroyed it. Imagine what Hussein could have done with those weapons if not for Israeli action. And look at it from a geographical point of view. There are more than 50 nations that are overwhelmingly Islamic (more than 50% of the population). Of them, there are 22 members of the Arab League. And these countries range from extremely secular (Mauritania) to ulta-religious (Iran). And a large number of them will automatically grant citizenship to any Muslim that requests it. So its more than apparent that the Palestinians have plenty of other options. And while some countries like Jordan may not accept them, countries like Saudi Arabia and The Sudan, both of which have open door policies for Muslim immigration, would gladly let them in.
Then there is the terror issue. In the past 10 years, the Palestinians have killed thousands of innocent people, the majority of which were civilians. Conversely, Israel has been restrained in its response, and killed militants instead of the innocent. So we can see a proclivity towards terror in the Palestinians that is not present in Jewish Israelis. And taking into account this terror, do you honestly believe they deserve a reward? After all it would only serve to encourage further terrorism. And it has. Recently, a Hamas leader stated that their actions of suicide bombing had led to the victory that is the withdrawal. He continued, saying that they would step up their campaign of terror until they gained all of the land. Doesn't sound very diplomatic does it? Well too bad, since Hamas is also a Palestinian political party and is expected to dominate the next election. And you want to give them land?
Thus, the Muslims have made their intentions clear. They will not rest until all the land is theirs and they have eradicated the "Jewish disease". And between them and us, I'm damn sure what I'd choose. Am I suggesting ethnically cleansing them? No. To take such a course in any way other than as a last resort would be to stoop to their level. Rather, we should do as Rabbi Kahane TZ"L suggested 30 years ago, and deport them. And unlike the settlers who are being lied to by Adolph Sharon and will be left without compensation, these Palestinians would be awarded money for the value of their home upon departure.
Now that I've explained why they have no claim on the land, let me explain why the "disengagement" was wrong.
As should be clear, they have no claim on the land. As such, making steps that lead towards it are illogical. Beyond that, it has caused harm to the settlers. For centuries, Jews have been forced from their homes. And, in 1948 when the UN voted for the creation of a Jewish state, Jews rejoiced, thinking that their homes would be secure. Following the addition of the lands in 1967, Israelis moved from their homes and built up communities there. These towns flourished. They became agriculturally and industrially advanced. Their education systems became great and their communities strong. They had built a whole life their and grown to consider it their home. And then, on the whim of an unpopular leader (Sharon) they were booted out. Their possessions lost and their homes destroyed. Is that fair? Absolutely not.
But the worst part is that it has caused a permanent divide in the Jewish community. After this, the religious Jews, who had once accepted their secular brothers, even making political concessions for peace's sake. Now, the religious will never trust the secular again. Never will they accept the government and make concessions. Never will they come to their aid and never will they support their actions. No longer will the Orthodox serve in the military or work to help the nation. Now the nation has forever been split, and its all thanks to Adolph Sharon ignoring the obvious issues, and starting the disengagement.
Thank you Adolph, you've laid the groundwork for another world war.
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Glitch
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Aug 26 2005, 08:41 PM
Post #24
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You can take quotes out of any religious book and manipulate them out of context. I've made the Bible support gay marriage before, I can show you if you want to see
Deportation won't work. The Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank have little will or reason to move.
Besides, you're speaking as if either the Palestinians stay or the Israelis stay. There's no in-between. I think it's quite ridiculus. If nearly all other world powers can live with religious and ethnic minorities then why can't Israel?
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Stpfx
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Aug 26 2005, 11:08 PM
Post #25
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the Palistinians can't exactly live with the Israelis either...... It's a 2 sided problem and I blame both sides for it.
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gprime
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Aug 27 2005, 05:45 AM
Post #26
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Glitch, I'd like to see your biblical argument for gay marraige. Old testmate only.
And there are no in betweens. I'm not sure how familiar you are with the whole situation, so excuse me if some of what I say is obvious. Hamas, a terror organization who recently said that they were behind 50% of all terror attacks in both Intifadas, are also a political party. They are running for control of the PA. And you know what? They have a damn good chance. This disengagement is doing them wonders. And that's why they'll probably win. Any clue what their platform is? Continue, and in fact increase terror in Jewish areas until all of Isreal, including pre-67' land is theirs.
So there is no choice. We must remove them before they remove us.
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Glitch
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Aug 27 2005, 04:05 PM
Post #27
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- gprime
- Aug 27 2005, 04:45 AM
Glitch, I'd like to see your biblical argument for gay marraige. Old testmate only.
http://forums.ifskinzone.net/index.php?sho...c=108325&st=160
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And there are no in betweens. I'm not sure how familiar you are with the whole situation, so excuse me if some of what I say is obvious. Hamas, a terror organization who recently said that they were behind 50% of all terror attacks in both Intifadas, are also a political party. They are running for control of the PA. And you know what? They have a damn good chance. This disengagement is doing them wonders. And that's why they'll probably win. Any clue what their platform is? Continue, and in fact increase terror in Jewish areas until all of Isreal, including pre-67' land is theirs.
So there is no choice. We must remove them before they remove us.
Remove Hamas then. There's no need to remove all Palestinians. We have no right to remove all Palestinians either. It's like if we conquered Canada, we couldn't just deport all Canadians because we didn't like them.
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