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McCain vs. Obama; Round 3! Fight!
Topic Started: Oct 15 2008, 08:05 PM (4,206 Views)
Bluezone777
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Lone Stranger
Oct 15 2008, 10:56 PM
Really now, why should our taxes pay for your college education?
So it don't have to go to paying for your welfare and food stamps and every other government program that substitutes or attempts to substitute the need for a job to pay for that.

Many want to be self sufficient and have a good paying job but have no way to getting the money together to pay for it all or end up going into heavy debt via loans which take years even decades to pay off and that's without an guarantee that the degree you are going for will end up with there being a job for you that requires having that degree.

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Stephen
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Twilight is upon me, and soon night must fall.

By far this debate had the best questions. The moderator really tried to pin them. But I just noticed that McCain had trouble with his temper. And he consistently would speak to the moderator and not into the camera. Obama did it a few times but much of the time, he looked directly at the camera. Also, Obama complimented McCain a few times and McCain responded with more mean lectures.

Deadhorses:
Failed policy of Bush. Well that's only the 3rd time in a row. 4 if we count Biden. Enough thanks
Americans are hurting and angry? YA THINK?
Fundamental change: Well that's been going on for months. I think I'd like a change from them saying that.

Good stuff:

Acorn and Ayers. Obam addressed it well. He also did a nice job addressing Lewis and the issues at Palin's debate.
McCain on the other hand, let me down. He never once condemned those specific people in the crowd who said "terrorist and kill him". No. In fact, he said something to the effect of being proud of the crowd in his rallies which did not help. Also, he opened up a big can of worms by dwelling too long on Roe v Wade. According to CNN, his comment on that had him flatlining with women.

Lastly, College. I go to a state college literally 15 minutes from my home. I commute. That saves me a couple thousand. But because my father makes an above average salary, I don't qualify for grants etc. As opposed to my friend whose parents don't make it, but who also commutes and had scholarships. Essentially with the money he's been given, he's being paid to go to college and gets money back. And, none of it is a loan.

I'm looking at probably $25,000 in student loans when I finish college (Unless I can get more scholarship money). Maybe to some of you that doesn't seem like a lot, but consider this. The most expensive thing I own is my car (paid 4,000 for it). Second is my laptop paid for by money from aunts and uncles (close to $1050). Next is the X-box I scrimped and saved for ($350). $25,000 is a lot. So anything that can go to reducing my loans is something I welcome. If McCain isn't even going to try, I don't see a need to even waste a vote on him. Obama sees us as the future. McCain sees us as those whippersnappers that need to get off his lawn. -_-

Glad I watched this debate though, it made me feel better about my choice for November.
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spartan09
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I love politics.

Politicians, on the other hand, are stupid. If they would just be people, instead of fricking machines trying to win every single vote they can, they'd have a lot more people voting for them. The first politician that admits they made a mistake somewhere in their career I'm voting for.

Until them, it's the 'me' party for me. I'd still be the best president ever.
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Gwennie
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Wait a gosh darned minute!

McCain stated, and I quote:

"We need to encourage programs such as Teach for America and Troops to Teachers where people, after having served in the military, can go right to teaching and not have to take these examinations which -- or have the certification that some are required in some states."

What the heck?! Military veterans become teachers without a college degree, AND without any passing any examination certification? Is he HIGH? Before I went completely nuts, I looked up Troops for Teachers. Surely, I thought, I missed something/I misunderstood. Um, noe. No I did not. Besides being military, here is ALL you need to be a teacher in a McCain presidency:

"Do you have the equivalent of one year of college (24 semester hours) with 6 years of military experience in a vocational/technical field or meet state requirements? (Check with TTT State coordinator or state certification office. Contact information and a vocational/technical listing is on our web site, www.proudtoserveagain.com.)"

source:

http://www.dantes.doded.mil/dantes_web/troopstoteachers/eligibility.asp?Flag=True&P=3&Q=7

So yes, boys and girls, McCain believes that the military experience is good enough to throw you in a classroom, particularly schools with lower income and special education: YOU KNOW, THE KIDS WHO NEED A GOOD EDUCATION THE MOST. You question that? Here's the goals and objectives of Troops to Teachers:

"Reflecting the focus of the No Child Left Behind Act of 2001, the primary objective of TTT is to help recruit quality teachers for schools that serve students from low-income families throughout America. TTT helps relieve teacher shortages, especially in math, science, special education and other critical subject areas, and assists military personnel in making successful transitions to second careers in teaching."

source:

http://www.dantes.doded.mil/dantes_web/troopstoteachers/Overview.asp

So if you want some military person in the classroom, as a teacher, vote for John McCain. He'll help make America brighter, one failed student at a time.


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Lone Stranger (S)
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Justin
Oct 15 2008, 11:04 PM
Those few hundred dollar essays are barely enough to cover the price of books, let alone enough classes to get even an associates degree. I don't see what is so wrong with some public money being set aside for kids who are unable to afford college.
If you write 100 essays over the course of high school, that's about one per two weeks, then you would have over $30,000 worth of scholarships at just $100 a scholarship. Plus, other programs like Bright Futures allow kids to go to college pretty much free - just so long as you have good grades.

That's another thing: should our tax dollars go to pay forum someone's college when they probably don't want to go, or gets very bad grades? Why should I invest into someone that's probably going to fail and just drop out?

Also, if we start paying for people's colleges, the value of a degree will plummet much like the dollar. Why? Because, it's harder to get into college right now. If we were to start allowing EVERYONE to go to college, then the value of my degree wouldn't be worth much more than the bum's next to me.

This doesn't even begin to cover the new taxes that would have to come into play in order for us to be able to afford a program like this. Paying staff alone would be well over $100,000,000 worth of new taxes. And then you have the price of college. Let's take an average four year degree. It costs about $12,000 a year. Let's say about 200,000 people were going for their college diploma. (Which is an extreme under-estimate.) That would be about $2,400,000,000 (2.4 billion) in new taxes.

That's just for a four year college degree going to a cheap college! That doesn't even cover books, supplies, living expenses, etc. Many professions even require six or more years of college!

It's competition that the economy loves. Without competition, our economy will fail. If our country has nothing but people who expect high paying jobs and will go with no less than a high paying job, then who will be the one working the burgers or taking our trash?
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Loona
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Gwennie
Oct 16 2008, 12:12 AM
"We need to encourage programs such as Teach for America and Troops to Teachers where people, after having served in the military, can go right to teaching and not have to take these examinations which -- or have the certification that some are required in some states."

What the heck?!
Yea, when I heard that I thought: "What kind of horrible idea is that? I wonder if Obama will address it, or decide to shy away from it to not look like an ass who doesn't care about troops."
Or maybe he even agrees with it, who knows. :blink:
I think it's an awful idea, at least in the state it was presented. I should really read more up into the links you posted just to clarify for myself, though it does sound like what I thought it sounded like.
Edited by Loona, Oct 16 2008, 09:55 AM.
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Locke
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That one guy
Most scholarships are not available until your senior year, junior year at the earliest. 100 essays every two weeks over the course of the four isn't realistic. It doesn't work that way.

Would you mind expanding on what Bright Futures is? I Googled, but did not find anything relevant, just a couple of state programs.

Drawing a comparison: would you mind explaining your feelings towards tax money supporting your local high schools, then? I believe the percentage of dropouts in high school is resting somewhere around 11%. Are they worthy of supporting following your logic, or should they be privatized completely so that your money only goes to support your own children? The mood in our country has shifted very much toward higher education in recent decades. It is becoming more and more expected, just as we expect that our youth complete high school.

My personal feeling is that we invest in our future by taxation for schools and also in the government providing loan opportunities. I think that we can be as individualistic as we like, but at the basis of this, we still have to make some contributions towards furthering a 'society.'
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Phoenix Penna
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Hold on, I'm still having trouble with this: If we were to start allowing EVERYONE to go to college, then the value of my degree wouldn't be worth much more than the bum's next to me.

So according to you...you think, that a mother working two jobs to support her 2 kids and cover the mortgage before they are foreclosed on, because her husband's jobs been sent over to India---their kids, shouldn't be allowed to go to college, based upon their inability to pay, because your degree might be worth less?

...

Thank you, for posting that. It reinforces the fact that I wholeheartedly agreed with the new name of the country: The United Stupid of America. What...the heck, gives you the right to say that your degree is worth more than those kids? I mean, really. In my own humble opinion, your statement actually makes me think that you're the bum sitting next to me in class, making my degree worth less.

>.<

Agreed on the Troops-For-Teachers thing...that's...bizarre. &
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Locke 14 minutes ago Most scholarships are not available until your senior year, junior year at the earliest. 100 essays every two weeks over the course of the four isn't realistic. It doesn't work that way.
<- agreed. And, I'm going to assume you've found a way to pay for college, the person who is suggesting that, and therefore doesn't need to. So. Did you write a hundred essays? And where did you find them all? And win?

If our country has nothing but people who expect high paying jobs and will go with no less than a high paying job, then who will be the one working the burgers or taking our trash? <-...okay, wow, you are reallllly just destroying my faith...

Seriously, this country was founded on the belief that we are able to better ourselves. The American Dream. Anyone-can-get-anywhere. That's what made us cross the Mississippi River, go for the Ohio River Valley, go to the moon. It's that mentality that got woman the right to vote, increased civil rights. And yet every time we actually start doing well, we have a conservative in office who deregulates, factors in trickle-down and lasiezz faire under the belief that there are people out there that just are too lazy. If that's the case? I don't want to be an American. I believe that Americans are fundamentally strong and desire jobs. Under these current policies, they find their jobs sent over seas, and their homes foreclosed....

...and then you don't let their kids go to college.

Because yes.
That makes sense.
>.<

Obama 08, thank youuu.

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Lone Stranger (S)
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Most scholarships are not available until your senior year, junior year at the earliest. 100 essays every two weeks over the course of the four isn't realistic. It doesn't work that way.

Who said 100 essays a week for four years? At that rate, you could be a millionaire.

Bright Futures is a Florida State (from what I know at least) scholarship. It pays anywhere between 75-100% of your college tuition, provided your grades are good enough.

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Drawing a comparison: would you mind explaining your feelings towards tax money supporting your local high schools, then?... It is becoming more and more expected, just as we expect that our youth complete high school.

Well, yes. I personally think that our schools should be completely privatized. The private schools actually have a lesser drop-out rate. Public schools are always a topic of debate. Should we/should we not teach "this" in our schools? Well, with privatized schools, at least my tax dollars doesn't go towards teaching something I don't believe in.

Further, what was the drop-out rate in the 20's and 30's? People would drop-out in middle school, right? So I would have to say that whether we have public or private schools will not really effect whether someone is going to be a drop-out.

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So according to you...you think, that a ... based upon their inability to pay, because your degree might be worth less?

Who is not allowing her children to go to college? I don't see a law stating that if you make under X amount of dollars you can't go to college. There are many stories of people making dirt for their income going to college and then making something of their lives. The thing is that college loans are very easy to get. You don't even start paying them off until AFTER college. The fact of the matter is that most of those people don't bother to because they either think they won't make it or just think that they can't afford the loan. Well, after getting a college degree, that would change.

Therefore, what's the need to make public colleges? The only thing that it will do is increase our spending-which everyone already says is too high.

Quote:
 
Thank you, for posting that. It reinforces the fact that I wholeheartedly agreed with the new name of the country: The United Stupid of America. What...the heck, gives you the right to say that your degree is worth more than those kids? I mean, really. In my own humble opinion, your statement actually makes me think that you're the bum sitting next to me in class, making my degree worth less.

I really resent most of that. Who the heck says that I am making these choices? It's the CEO's and employers that make these decisions.

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<- agreed. And, I'm going to assume you've found a way to pay for college, the person who is suggesting that, and therefore doesn't need to. So. Did you write a hundred essays? And where did you find them all? And win?

Personally, I don't need to. I am going into the military. I will have them pay for my degree and then stay in the military for another 16 years.

Did you know that if you stayed in the military for 20 years that you will be paid for the rest of your life? It's true. So, along with my college degree (that was completely paid for) and the military pay, I will have a job. Therefore, after 20 years in the military (at about 37), I should be making well over $100,000 a year. Wow, it's amazing that someone could have thought of such a simple idea.

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Seriously, this country was founded on the belief that we are able to better ourselves.

No, the "American dream" is actually "get rich quick." Thus all of the get-rich-quick schemes we have.

Edit: now that I think about it, that could be another possible reason why people don't go to college, drop-out of high school or just "fail" in life, as some of you may call it. People don't plan. They make absolutely no plans for their life. How can you get anywhere in life just winging-it all of the time?

Also, why should I have to pay for their mistakes? Why should I have to pay for someone's tuition after they dropped-out of high school expecting that a G.E.D. will get them anywhere? Not even the military will be accepting G.E.D.'s in a few years...
Edited by Lone Stranger, Oct 16 2008, 05:03 PM.
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Justin-ZNS
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Personally, I don't need to. I am going into the military. I will have them pay for my degree and then stay in the military for another 16 years.


It's ok for somebody else to pay for your degree, but not the other way around?
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Lone Stranger (S)
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Justin
Oct 16 2008, 05:44 PM
Quote:
 
Personally, I don't need to. I am going into the military. I will have them pay for my degree and then stay in the military for another 16 years.


It's ok for somebody else to pay for your degree, but not the other way around?
The difference is that I will be working for the tax I get. I will be putting my life on the line for the pay I get. The military is, and should be, tax supported.
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Gwennie
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How in the heck does he think the MILITARY will pay for his degree (and living expenses), if not from TAXES? Distributing the WEALTH, remember? It's very hypocritical to expect the military, funded by TAX DOLLARS, to pay for your education and salary and HOUSING while in the military...yet your tax dollars shouldn't go to similar for OTHERS.

eta: he snuck a post in on me there.

Erm, scholarship/financial aid students have to study. Or they will be dropped from the college/university. Then the tax $ subsidy stops. Same as military AWOL or dishonorable discharge.
Edited by Gwennie, Oct 16 2008, 05:50 PM.
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Justin-ZNS
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Oct 16 2008, 05:46 PM
Justin
Oct 16 2008, 05:44 PM
Quote:
 
Personally, I don't need to. I am going into the military. I will have them pay for my degree and then stay in the military for another 16 years.


It's ok for somebody else to pay for your degree, but not the other way around?
The difference is that I will be working for the tax I get. I will be putting my life on the line for the pay I get. The military is, and should be, tax supported.
That's the thing, a person shouldn't have to essentially put their life on the line in order to afford a college education. I obviously don't think every joe schmoe off the street should get one, but if a student has proven that he or she deserves it, but can't afford it, then the public should step up and help the kid out.
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Lone Stranger (S)
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Gwennie
Oct 16 2008, 05:48 PM
How in the heck does he think the MILITARY will pay for his degree (and living expenses), if not from TAXES? Distributing the WEALTH, remember? It's very hypocritical to expect the military, funded by TAX DOLLARS, to pay for your education and salary and HOUSING while in the military...yet your tax dollars shouldn't go to similar for OTHERS.
What are those people doing for me? Are they going out protecting my rights? No. They are simply living off of MY hard earned money. That's what loads of people do. My friend's dad does that. He works under the table AND gets paid for disability. Why in the world should my tax dollars go towards that?

As for the military: it's HIGHLY constitutional. The constitution and bill of rights are there to protect us. They give the government the authority to protect our rights. None of it gives out government the right to spend my tax dollars and supporting someone who made ALL the wrong choices in life.
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Kezzie
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I'm not American and not up to date on all issues but I don't think the government paying for college education is a bad thing. I'm sure if this were brought into place there would be qualification system for those that can go to college.

I may live in a much smaller country but we have a system over here where you sit a test in every subject you study and are awarded points based on the grade you get and the level of exam you take. Each college/uni and course has a different points level which changes every year based on the amount of people who apply for it and the potential outcome of your degree (meaning a medical degree will be higher points than an arts degree) It's not a perfect system but I don't think any system is perfect but at least it gives everyone a chance if they want to go to college.
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