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"Occupy" Protests
Topic Started: Nov 13 2011, 09:55 PM (835 Views)
jsyy
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I'm curious to see if you guys have an opinion on the "Occupy" protests that have sprouted up nationwide. Do you think they're going to work? Do you view them as a valid political movement or a nuisance?
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Geoffrey
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bury hatchets, keep maps
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Yes, protesting and not going to work is going to help our nation's economy and jobs crisis. /sarcasm

They do have a good message, though. Until the one in Oakland went violent.
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jsyy
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GAK.
Nov 13 2011, 09:57 PM
Yes, protesting and not going to work is going to help our nation's economy and jobs crisis. /sarcasm
In all fairness though, I don't think sitting idly by and watching the country go to hell is doing anyone much good either.
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Dakota
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over my dead body
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These people are cray cray.
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Zeroimus
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They are would wide but they dont get any news media. Their message is true, "Anonymous" was the doing that turned world wide with their Occupy Wallstreet. I'm waiting to see Marshall Law, and our rights get completely taken away and they use the FEMA camps to enslave us. That'll be fun, go rich people right.. I got someone who says it all on TV, Hank William Jr. He calls Obama Hitler on ESPN and gets fired. This is his words to Network tv.

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Steve
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I've only loosely followed this story, but capitalism isn't the problem. When the banks where bailed out using taxpayers money, that wasn't capitalism in action because in a true capitalist system the banks would have gone under and no taxpaying citizen would have been liable for keeping them afloat. Granted that might have caused lots of really bad short term problems, but things would recover much better than the repeated bailouts (which haven't worked).

Also find it quite odd that many of them are camping in tents, drinking coca-cola and starbucks, while buying their lunch from McDonald's and in this country Tesco. All of which are obvious products of capitalism.

I think it's obvious something is wrong with the system, but protesting against investors and traders in the cities isn't going to help one bit. If they were to change their tactics and protest against the politicians whose stupid ideas and silly bailouts have made the situation worse, then I might have some sympathy for them.

Also does anybody know what their alternative to capitalism is? Communism? If so, that didn't work out very well for the USSR.
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Helena-ZNR
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*presses the "like" button on Steve's post... *

The protests seem completely unfocused and apparently they haven't thought things through to the part where they get their wish and government moves in to take care of them completely and they lose all individual rights. (Like the right to protest against the people that aren't the cause of your problems. :P )
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lightsilver
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Nobody is saying capitalism is the problem. Capitalism is not the problem. The problem is the distribution of wealth. The tax cuts for the rich. The fact that the middle class is disappearing. People have a sense that what is happening is wrong, even if they don't quite understand what the problem is. That's what they're protesting. And it's real problems, that won't just go away. I think something does have to be done. And I don't think there's any problem with having higher taxes for the rich.

And the rich get the tax cuts, because there seems to be some delusion floating around, that if the rich people have more money, they'll create more jobs. Generally speaking, this is not the case.

So, yes, I think it is a valid political movement. I think that the way things are going, things have to change. If the don't change, the problems will just get worse.

But I haven't been following up on it entirely; just little bits here and there. I hear a lot about the protests being unfocused. I'm sure it has something to do with the fact that they're protesting that they don't like the way things are. And it's a large movement, there's going to be a lot of variety in what people know, what they don't like, and how much they understand. So really, the problem is that there isn't just one problem, but eventually, something's going to have to change.
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Steve
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In the US, the top 1% already pay 38% of all Federal Income Tax ( http://blog.heritage.org/wp-content/uploads/top-earners-taxes-10-4-11.jpg ), while the bottom 50% pay only 3% of all federal income tax. It's somewhat similar here in the UK.

Besides, what people pay in tax isn't an issue in my opinion - it's what the government does with what they collect that matters most. If the majority of my tax is going towards servicing public debt then I'm not going to be all that pleased about giving them more of my hard earned cash.

Particularly here in the UK, where the government spends more money on servicing the interest on the national debt than on education - it's no wonder people with any amount of wealth at all aren't interested in giving more of it away to the government. How can the government be trusted with it!?
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StephenZB
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Steve
Nov 15 2011, 05:17 AM
In the US, the top 1% already pay 38% of all Federal Income Tax ( http://blog.heritage.org/wp-content/uploads/top-earners-taxes-10-4-11.jpg ), while the bottom 50% pay only 3% of all federal income tax. It's somewhat similar here in the UK.
That's not quite true.

Yes, they pay a good chunk. However, due to a lot of tax loopholes, they are able to get out of paying a LOT more that they technically owe. On top of which, they have received tax cuts with the theory that these are the "job creators". However, these top 1% are in that top 1% because they are frugal with their spending and investments. This means they are less likely to take a risk by creating jobs. Therefore, this theory that many cling to, has been proven false. Or, worse, they do create jobs but the jobs are overseas because that is more affordable.

The one big issue I have is with people who say: I don't want my tax dollars going to ....!"

Example: I don't want my tax dollars paying for some illegal immigrant's health care.

I don't want my tax dollars paying for someone's abortion.

This annoys me greatly because of the hypocrisy.

Example: That same person who doesn't want to pay for healthcare, has no problem with sending soldiers to war.

It does present an interesting idea: What would happen if everyone could choose where their tax dollars went? Other than complete and utter chaos, I could see a lot of wars suddenly grinding to a halt.
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Zeroimus
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All the people at these protests are young. I admit protesting wont get anywhere. Just like the Steel Workers that protests outside honeywell for a year til they decided to just sign the agreement.. They only real way is to vote in the right people. I do agree with most on re-electing a whole new congress.. It along with the governement is corrupt. Vote right and true.

Behind Occupy Wallstreet is "Anonymous"

http://anonops.blogspot.com/

It was their plan, they defend the First Amendment the most, right to peaceful protest and freedom of speech. They are recording everything to do with the protests and peoples bad experiences with a Police State.

They just like WikiLeaks want the government to tell US the truth instead of a lie with their Main Stream Media.
Edited by Zeroimus, Nov 16 2011, 06:56 PM.
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StephenZB
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Congress is not the problem. Or rather, voting to replace them will not fix the problem. The problem is the current election process itself. Those with the most money tend to win. This leads the politicians to essentially prostitute themselves out in order to get donations. Naturally, these 'donations' come with a catch and favors etc. This is the problem. As long as lobbyists and donors have the clout and influence on the laws, Congress will never change.
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Bluezone777-ZNR
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StephenZB
Nov 17 2011, 05:01 PM
Congress is not the problem. Or rather, voting to replace them will not fix the problem. The problem is the current election process itself. Those with the most money tend to win. This leads the politicians to essentially prostitute themselves out in order to get donations. Naturally, these 'donations' come with a catch and favors etc. This is the problem. As long as lobbyists and donors have the clout and influence on the laws, Congress will never change.
Agreed but people are still hell bent on thinking that if they change who plays the role of the puppet will lead to any of the change they want. It will only change when the puppet master is kicked out but I fear the people of this country are too dumb to ever get that and will instead continue to fight over who should be the puppet instead and then wondering why nothing ever changes.
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Nivexonix
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I haven't followed the protests closely, but it seems pointless to just occupy Wall Street. I realize that it does make it obvious that there are issues, but there are ways to actually inflict change, rather than just complaining about your opinion. (In a very basic sense, that's what this boils down to.) If people really are interested in pushing change, then they should be focused on petitioning and influencing their government.

As was pointed out, politicians with the most money end up winning their election. That is the problem here, because it shows that wealth influences powers...heavily. I agree with Steve that capitalism isn't the problem, but I also agree with lightsilver that the distribution of wealth is a problem. However, people hate socialism, which is exactly what would help to balance the distribution of wealth. I don't like that people aren't interested in finding out and forming their own opinions, but would rather follow the crowd. That just disgusts me.
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Steve
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Nivexonix
Nov 19 2011, 12:54 PM
However, people hate socialism, which is exactly what would help to balance the distribution of wealth.
It wouldn't, trust me.
Here in the UK we've had some heavy doses of socialism since the end of WW2, and what it's done is inflate the public sector to the point that the private sector and the working man can no longer support it through taxes, it's created a level of state dependency that's not sustainable, it's diluted personal responsibility and on the whole just encourages envy.
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