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Teaching of Intelligent Design
Topic Started: Dec 21 2005, 09:34 AM (870 Views)
DaNtE X
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Glitch
Dec 21 2005, 05:41 PM
DaNtE X
Dec 21 2005, 05:33 PM
I honestly thing this whole "intelligent design" crap is all BS.  Today, the judges voted against it, so its not going to happen.  The fact that the school system is blatantly lying, calling it scientific, is just stupid.  Evolution should be and will be the only creation theory taught in schools for a while.

I agree with you, except for one thing. Evolution is not a creation theory. Evolution does not explain how life came about, or how the Universe came about.
Even theories like abiogenesis and the Big Bang are not creation theories, because nothing is being "created" in those theories.

Your right, my bad. But yea. The funniest thing about this whole event is that the school board members who voted to teach intelligent design were all fired.
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Glitch
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DaNtE X
Dec 21 2005, 05:47 PM
Your right, my bad. But yea. The funniest thing about this whole event is that the school board members who voted to teach intelligent design were all fired.

No, they weren't fired, they were voted out. Not a single person on that school board remained in office after they made that decision. I guess the people have spoken :haha:
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DaNtE X
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Glitch
Dec 21 2005, 05:48 PM
DaNtE X
Dec 21 2005, 05:47 PM
Your right, my bad.  But yea.  The funniest thing about this whole event is that the school board members who voted to teach intelligent design were all fired.

No, they weren't fired, they were voted out. Not a single person on that school board remained in office after they made that decision. I guess the people have spoken :haha:

Gah, your too smart :lol:. I had the point wrong but the wording wrong. Anyway, yea, I just thought that part was quite funny.
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Curry
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Glitch
Dec 21 2005, 05:41 PM
DaNtE X
Dec 21 2005, 05:33 PM
I honestly thing this whole "intelligent design" crap is all BS.  Today, the judges voted against it, so its not going to happen.  The fact that the school system is blatantly lying, calling it scientific, is just stupid.  Evolution should be and will be the only creation theory taught in schools for a while.

I agree with you, except for one thing. Evolution is not a creation theory. Evolution does not explain how life came about, or how the Universe came about.
Even theories like abiogenesis and the Big Bang are not creation theories, because nothing is being "created" in those theories.

I thought that the Big Bang was how the universe was created.
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Dave
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Dec 21 2005, 03:02 PM
zorg222
Dec 21 2005, 02:08 PM
Why can't we simply present both theories to the students? After all, neither is solid fact, so why teach one over the other?

It is not hard to teach what each theory is, and teach them equally. That would end the dispute, the controversy, and almost all of the issues this subject faces. Yet we continue to teach only one? I fail to see the logic. I assume we cannot tie religion into science, but I don't think it should matter. The people that believe either way, are a group of people with a theory about how humans came to be. Neither are right nor wrong, because we don't know for sure. Teach them each as "views" on the subject, and leave it at that. We do not need to teach them as facts, which deals with your thoughts that they are contradictory, Myrdaal.

You, my friend, do not understand what a theory is. A theory is a series of scientific hypotheses that have been rigorously tested and for which extensive observations and evidence supporting it has been published. There are no legitemate scientific documents about intelligent design. I challenge you to go ahead and try to find one. Evolution, on the other hand, is one of the best-supported theories in science. I can find you tons of studies on it.

Hey, I agree that intelligent design would be interesting to learn about in school. But... not in a science class. Face it, intelligent design is religion. Religion requires faith, and most intelligent religious people I know can attest to this. Science is not about faith, but about evidence and experimentation. To teach religion in a science class undermines both religion and science.

My apologies, that was a quickly typed message that was not worded correctly at all. Yet, my opinion stands.

If not teach creationism as a single part to the subject of how we came to be, at least teach the doubts of Darwin's theory, so people may learn what the debate is all about. I would imagine something titled, "Those who Challenge Darwin," and explain that there is a group amongst us that has a belief that says supernatural beings/material formed the phenomena that is life as we know it. A small amount of time to explain an opposing side seems fit in my eyes, at least to give students real-world awareness, whether that is creationism is not the only thought, or that evolution is not the absolute route that life took to get here. I personally believe in a combination of evolution and intelligent design, without the knowledge of intelligent design formed from means other than school, I would not be able to form this thought. A student who is taken through school with no exposure to any other opinions on the subject is not recieving full awareness of the world around them, something that I think should result from schooling. To completely remove any trace of the thought of intelligent design is a bit ludacris in my eyes, we need to show every thought on different subjects. Granted, you make a valid argument when you mention intelligent design being a religious belief. Therefore, as I type this very message I have come up with this: teach this in two different classes to truly remove controversy. Teach evolution in the science room, and then teach different religious beliefs in social studies, such as intelligent design. You're happy, and students are made aware of all angles, so I'm happy.
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Glitch
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Vulcan
Dec 21 2005, 06:22 PM
I thought that the Big Bang was how the universe was created.

No matter was created in the Big Bang, it's just that before the Big Bang, all matter in the Universe was condensed into a single point with infinite density.

Quote:
 
If not teach creationism as a single part to the subject of how we came to be, at least teach the doubts of Darwin's theory, so people may learn what the debate is all about. I would imagine something titled, "Those who Challenge Darwin," and explain that there is a group amongst us that has a belief that says supernatural beings/material formed the phenomena that is life as we know it. A small amount of time to explain an opposing side seems fit in my eyes, at least to give students real-world awareness, whether that is creationism is not the only thought, or that evolution is not the absolute route that life took to get here. I personally believe in a combination of evolution and intelligent design, without the knowledge of intelligent design formed from means other than school, I would not be able to form this thought. A student who is taken through school with no exposure to any other opinions on the subject is not recieving full awareness of the world around them, something that I think should result from schooling. To completely remove any trace of the thought of intelligent design is a bit ludacris in my eyes, we need to show every thought on different subjects. Granted, you make a valid argument when you mention intelligent design being a religious belief. Therefore, as I type this very message I have come up with this: teach this in two different classes to truly remove controversy. Teach evolution in the science room, and then teach different religious beliefs in social studies, such as intelligent design. You're happy, and students are made aware of all angles, so I'm happy.

If you really think that a normal child today does not have adequate exposure to religious creationism...
Go ahead and teach intelligent design in a social studies class, but by no means teach it as absolute truth or science, because it is neither.
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Dave
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Glitch
Dec 21 2005, 05:37 PM
Quote:
 
If not teach creationism as a single part to the subject of how we came to be, at least teach the doubts of Darwin's theory, so people may learn what the debate is all about. I would imagine something titled, "Those who Challenge Darwin," and explain that there is a group amongst us that has a belief that says supernatural beings/material formed the phenomena that is life as we know it. A small amount of time to explain an opposing side seems fit in my eyes, at least to give students real-world awareness, whether that is creationism is not the only thought, or that evolution is not the absolute route that life took to get here. I personally believe in a combination of evolution and intelligent design, without the knowledge of intelligent design formed from means other than school, I would not be able to form this thought. A student who is taken through school with no exposure to any other opinions on the subject is not recieving full awareness of the world around them, something that I think should result from schooling. To completely remove any trace of the thought of intelligent design is a bit ludacris in my eyes, we need to show every thought on different subjects. Granted, you make a valid argument when you mention intelligent design being a religious belief. Therefore, as I type this very message I have come up with this: teach this in two different classes to truly remove controversy. Teach evolution in the science room, and then teach different religious beliefs in social studies, such as intelligent design. You're happy, and students are made aware of all angles, so I'm happy.

If you really think that a normal child today does not have adequate exposure to religious creationism...
Go ahead and teach intelligent design in a social studies class, but by no means teach it as absolute truth or science, because it is neither.

Unless they live in a religious family they don't know fully where the other side is coming from.

And nothing is an absolute truth when it comes to how we got here, or how anything came to exsist. Evolution is the same thing, it may fall under the category of 'science', but it is not fact, and needs to be taught the same way as intelligent design. (Not fact.)
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Spence
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Dec 21 2005, 06:37 PM
Go ahead and teach intelligent design in a social studies class, but by no means teach it as absolute truth or science, because it is neither.

To say that would mean that you must do the same for the evolutionist theory, for there is just as much evidence to support creationism vs the evidence to support evolutionism.
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Glitch
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zorg222
Dec 21 2005, 06:52 PM
Unless they live in a religious family they don't know fully where the other side is coming from.

And nothing is an absolute truth when it comes to how we got here, or how anything came to exsist. Evolution is the same thing, it may fall under the category of 'science', but it is not fact, and needs to be taught the same way as intelligent design. (Not fact.)

You mean they live in a bubble? Any person who is socially aware would know about and understand intelligent design: it's not a complicated idea.

Evolution is not taught as absolute truth. It's taught as science. At the beginning of every basic science class students learn about the scientific method - hypothesis, experimentation, observation, conclusion. Students aren't told that any science is absolute truth, it's their own fault for being stupid if they believe that.

Quote:
 
To say that would mean that you must do the same for the evolutionist theory, for there is just as much evidence to support creationism vs the evidence to support evolutionism.

Where is this evidence? Go ahead and show me. Don't use the Bible either - the Bible is not a scientific study.
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Spence
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So if the Bible is simply a thoery in your books, then lets also throw out the whole big bang theory, because it is just that, a theory. Lets also forget about the theory that man evolved from single celled organisms over millions of years.

Either way, both sides are just thoeries. Both sides require some faith to believe that what they think is the truth is correct. So why not teach both theories in school systems, and then use scientific fact to show how each side is plausible?
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DaNtE X
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Spence
Dec 21 2005, 07:17 PM
So if the Bible is simply a thoery in your books, then lets also throw out the whole big bang theory, because it is just that, a theory. Lets also forget about the theory that man evolved from single celled organisms over millions of years.

Either way, both sides are just thoeries. Both sides require some faith to believe that what they think is the truth is correct. So why not teach both theories in school systems, and then use scientific fact to show how each side is plausible?

I'm failing to see a scientific fact in "Intelligent Design".
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Glitch
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Spence
Dec 21 2005, 07:17 PM
So if the Bible is simply a thoery in your books, then lets also throw out the whole big bang theory, because it is just that, a theory. Lets also forget about the theory that man evolved from single celled organisms over millions of years.

Either way, both sides are just thoeries. Both sides require some faith to believe that what they think is the truth is correct. So why not teach both theories in school systems, and then use scientific fact to show how each side is plausible?

The Bible is not a scientific theory. Tell me, has the Bible gone rigorous scientific experimentation? Has every aspect of the Bible been tested over many years and not a single aspect disproved? Can the Bible be disproved? One of the key aspects of a scientific theory is that it has to be able to be disproved.
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Myriad
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Traek
Dec 21 2005, 01:58 PM
Myrdaal
Dec 21 2005, 03:00 PM
zorg222
Dec 21 2005, 12:08 PM
Why can't we simply present both theories to the students? After all, neither is solid fact, so why teach one over the other?

Because, one is based on religuous views which not everyone embraces. The other is based on research and experimentation unbiased by religion. Therefore the latter is more acceptable generally.

Oh and the teaching may start as "views" but it will eventually turn into being taught as fact. Shroud brought the point up, despite the fact that much of what we are taught in science is theory it is taught to us as fact.

What if I don't embrace all of the evolution theory. It's only a theory. No one has proved that the Big Bang occured, but we're expected to believe that it did.

No one proved that God created the Universe, and no one is being forced to believe that He did.

Evolution and Intellegent Design should be separate optional courses, but not mentioned in a science class.

Besides, the opposite of Intellegent Design isn't evolution. It's the Big Bang. I do believe that evolution occurs, but I do not believe that the Big Bang occured.

I'm talking about the theory of evolution not the Big Bang. They're separate things. The Big Bang and intelligent design cannot coincide, however intelligent design and evolution can.

Anyways evolution belongs in science class because it is based on scientific research. Intelligent design is not and thus does not belong in science class. If it was made an optional course that'd be great, but it's not science, it's faith.
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Curry
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Myrdaal
Dec 21 2005, 07:39 PM
Traek
Dec 21 2005, 01:58 PM
Myrdaal
Dec 21 2005, 03:00 PM
zorg222
Dec 21 2005, 12:08 PM
Why can't we simply present both theories to the students? After all, neither is solid fact, so why teach one over the other?

Because, one is based on religuous views which not everyone embraces. The other is based on research and experimentation unbiased by religion. Therefore the latter is more acceptable generally.

Oh and the teaching may start as "views" but it will eventually turn into being taught as fact. Shroud brought the point up, despite the fact that much of what we are taught in science is theory it is taught to us as fact.

What if I don't embrace all of the evolution theory. It's only a theory. No one has proved that the Big Bang occured, but we're expected to believe that it did.

No one proved that God created the Universe, and no one is being forced to believe that He did.

Evolution and Intellegent Design should be separate optional courses, but not mentioned in a science class.

Besides, the opposite of Intellegent Design isn't evolution. It's the Big Bang. I do believe that evolution occurs, but I do not believe that the Big Bang occured.

I'm talking about the theory of evolution not the Big Bang. They're separate things. The Big Bang and intelligent design cannot coincide, however intelligent design and evolution can.

Anyways evolution belongs in science class because it is based on scientific research. Intelligent design is not and thus does not belong in science class. If it was made an optional course that'd be great, but it's not science, it's faith.

But they can't teach it for separation of church and state.
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Glitch
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Vulcan
Dec 21 2005, 07:41 PM
But they can't teach it for separation of church and state.

I believe I talked to you before about seperation of church and state, Vulcan. All the Constitution has on seperation of church and state is the following clause from the First Amendment:
Quote:
 
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

The rest of it is up to the courts to determine. If the courts have not ruled on this specific matter then it's not violating seperation of church and state.
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