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Is the government covering up and withholding UFO related information?
Yes. 15 (65.2%)
No. 8 (34.8%)
Total Votes: 23
UFO Cover-Up?; Fact? Or Ludicrous Sci-Fi Fantasy?
Topic Started: Feb 3 2007, 01:36 AM (1,002 Views)
italianmafia23
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Is there really a government cover-up? Where does this presumption of a cover-up come from? Is it well justified? Here is a good example of why the presumption of a cover-up is well justified.

During the late 1970's, Stanton Friedman along with fellow researchers involved in CAUS (Citizens Against UFO Secrecy), under FOIA requested to obtain UFO information held by the CIA. The CIA claimed that they did not have any. The demand was then made by federal judge Gerhard Gesell and the CIA finally cracked producing document listings referencing other agencies including the NSA. A request was then submitted to the NSA and was denied. Further court action produced nothing. All government agencies that were sent FOIA requests refused to release any of their documents.

Undeterred, CAUS asked judge Gesell to request to see the documents so that he might rule on the legality of the withholding. The NSA refused even to do this instead producing an affidavit justifying the withholding as an issue of national security. Just to view the affidavit judge Gesell had to be security cleared Above Top Secret. Gesell reviewed the document privately and soon thereafter ruled that, indeed, nobody should be allowed to read the documents -- not even himself!

The issue was then brought before the Court of Appeals who agreed with Gesell and the NSA that the documents should not be released. Usually the Court of Appeals takes months, sometimes even years to decide issues. In this case, however, the court handed down its ruling in a matter of days!


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Whatever was in that Affidavit was so convincing that they agreed without question to continue the cover-up

-- Whitley Strieber, foreword, Top Secret/Majic


The CIA eventually admitted to having in their possession more than 900 UFO related documents, cross referencing other agencies of some 200 other documents, via FOIA request by CAUS after there was a court appeal when the CIA originally stated they had NO such documents. It should also be noted that, out of these 900 documents in the possession of the CIA, not a single one was classified above secret. A January 31, 1949 memo states that Army and Air Force Intelligence consider the subject of flying saucers Top Secret. There is good reason to believe that the CIA has in their possession far more documents pertaining to UFO's than that which they claim.

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John Marx is a lawyer who has managed to obtain a great deal of information about mind-control experiments conducted, usually illegally, in the early 1960's by the CIA and a number of subcontractors. His first FOIA release from the CIA was 400 pages of documents. He yelled and screamed. As a lawyer practicing in Washington, he could easily take the agency back to court, so he was given another box of 400 pages. More fussing; more boxes. He eventually wound up with 40,000 pages, and he still didn't get all the material. So the minuscule amount of UFO material we have received so far is probably just the barest tip of the iceberg.


-- Top Secret/Majic, Chapter 6, "Government Treatment of Majestic-12 and Roswell," Page 107, last paragraph 



Therefore, the original release was only 1% of what he eventually got and still didn't get it all!

Based on this example of many such incidents, in an attempt at being brief and concise, there can be no doubt that there is indeed a vast government cover-up based on nothing but the evidence and the date available for investigation. No speculation necessary.
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calico131
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Im not going to reply in the poll because im not sure. But i really hope they are, cuz alliens would be fcking kick ass.
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Dark + Horizon
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With the amount of space in the universe that we know of so far, I'd find it much harder to think that there is no life out there. I find it funny that scientists look for life that they know of, when they should look for any kind of life. We keep finding new animals in our oceans that even a couple months ago scientists doubted could live that deep. Why can't a race have something to allow them the ability of life on Pluto ? Or invisible aliens on Venus ? Who knows.
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Guerilla Warfare120
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I've watched about 15 documentarys on this subject and most of the thing's, like Bush is an alien (actually may be true, since he doesn't have a heart), is stupid as f*ck. But there were obviously aliens at Roswell. They wouldn't have kept a weather balloon secret, and what they were "researching" was already well known as fact.
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italianmafia23
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Agreed. The subject matter is filled to the brim with loads of fictional garbage, both misinformation and deliberate disinformation. The corrupt media contributes to the general perception of the phenomenon probably more than anything else, and has always focused on the weaker aspects of the phenomenon to decrease credibility and create an aura of deniability and ridicule.

To the average person, knowledge of the subject matter comes only from what they see on the news, tv, movies and tabloid magazine and newspaper articles. None of this is even barely scratching the surface. To find the good stuff you have to do the research. There is some extremely convincing material out there that is completely 100% verifiable that you won't see on CNN or BBC.

It can be overwhelming being a newbie to such a controversial yet provactive subject because of the confusing mixture of controversial and contradictory material with suggestive objective verifiable data. It's all about seperating the wheat from the chaff, and that's the hard part.
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Original GTA Master-ZNR
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Well yeah, they at least have our own aircrafts being made in there that they're not letting us know about, leaving them as Unidentified Flying Object (UFOs). Now I some what believe in extra terrestrials, very fascinated by that stuff, but seeing as there isn't actual proof saying this stuff is real, there is still that slight doubt in me.
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Libby.
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I beleive nobody knows. But i'm pretty sure theres gotta be something out there.

But if the goverment do know something, i'm sure they wouldn't leak it out to the public.
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Pitinosmafia99
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No there is no aliens. This is retarded.
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Guerilla Warfare120
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Pitinosmafia99
Feb 8 2007, 11:51 PM
No there is no aliens. This is retarded.

What a deep and informative post.
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italianmafia23
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Pitinosmafia99
Feb 8 2007, 11:51 PM
No there is no aliens. This is retarded.


Oh, is that so? How can you be so sure?
That is a typical ignorant response supported by nothing but blind personal belief and common pop culture inspired stereotypes. Such a statement is surely not backed by science by any means, that I can assure you. Skepticism must not be confused with disbelief.

Do aliens exist? Scientifically no. At least there is no absolute proof of such, however, there is a mountain of empirical objective verifiable evidence that accompanies the subject matter pertaining to UFOs that is suggestive of other worldly activity.

Scientifically, as of recently scientists have come to the conclusion that based on statistical analysis, the probability of there being intelligent life in the universe is exponentially high if not absolutely guaranteed. Likewise, the probability of there being life in our galaxy are also tremendously high. Although not proven, we are dealing in theoretical probability here, not absolutes, and in probability you can make a pretty accurate determination considering such a wide gap in the probability ratio. The chances of there being intelligent life elsewhere in the universe is greater than 99.99%.

The question then becomes: Is interstellar travel possible? Not with any means of propulsion we have developed, no. However, theories in physics and astrophysics and even advanced aerospace breakthrough propulsion concepts indicate that it is certainly possible. Also taking into account the possibility that a given civilization could have had a thousand, million or even a billion year head start bolsters the possibility of developing such technology. Take into account how much we have progressed scientifically in just the last 100 years. Imagine where we will be in 1,000 or 1,000,000 years. The potential for possible future technological advances is impossible to even begin to comprehend.

We do not yet have the authority to discern what level of technology is necessarily needed for interstellar travel to become advanced to the point in which it is safe, plausible and routine. To proclaim it as impossible or even "highly unlikely" is rather egotistical and unjustified.

If interstellar travel is possible and feasible, one question still remains: How could they possibly find us? After all, there are more stars in the universe than there are grains of sand on every beach and desert on planet earth. However you should keep in mind that it is certainly possible, and some may even argue probable, for an extraterrestrial civilization to survey an entire galaxy within a relatively short span of time in proportion to the age of the milky way galaxy and the universe itself.

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... the most mathematically efficient method to explore space is far less glamorous: to send fleets of "Von Neumann probes" throughout the galaxy (named after John Von Neumann, who established the mathematical laws of self-replicating systems).

A Von Neumann probe is a robot designed to reach distant star systems and create factories which will reproduce copies themselves by the thousands. A dead moon rather than a planet makes the ideal destination for Von Neumann probes, since they can easily land and take off from these moons, and also because these moons have no erosion. These probes would live off the land, using naturally occurring deposits of iron, nickel, etc. to create the raw ingredients to build a robot factory. They would create thousands of copies of themselves, which would then scatter and search for other star systems.

Similar to a virus colonizing a body many times its size, eventually there would be a sphere of trillions of Von Neumann probes expanding in all directions, increasing at a fraction of the speed of light. In this fashion, even a galaxy 100,000 light years across may be completely analyzed within, say, a half million years.

~World Renowned Theoretical Physicist Michio Kaku, "The Physics of Extra-Terrestrial Civilizations"


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This study follows up on previous arguments that (1) interstellar travel for advanced civilizations is not a priori ruled out by physical principles and therefore may be practicable, and (2) such advanced civilisations may value the search for knowledge from uncontaminated species more than direct, interspecies communication, thereby accounting for apparent covertness regarding their presence.

...

Whether one assumes the existence of only one other civilisation or of many alien civilisations in our Milky Way galaxy, and whether one assumes colonisation involving interstellar travel at near-light speed or far below, diffusion modeling predicts colonisation or at least visitation of all habitable planets in the galaxy on timescales of tens of millions of years, far less than the approximate 13 x 10^9 year age of the galaxy itself. Thus the paradox: Where are they [1]? ... We thus find ourselves in the curious position that current cosmological theory predicts that we should be experiencing extraterrestrial visitation. At the same time, current physics and astrophysics suggest that such visitation may not be as impossible as had been thought.

Inflation-Theory Implications for Extraterrestrial Visitation


So now that we have established the basic principles of potential extraterrestrial civilizations and the probability and plausibility of them finding and visiting planet Earth, it then becomes a question of whether there is any evidence to suggest that they are really here. This is a position I am well qualified to defend and have much evidence to substantiate. However, I feel this post has dragged on long enough, I don't wish to turn anyone off.



Hopefully I didn't turn anyone off with the length of this post, I tried to be as brief as possible while remaining as scientifically inclined and objective as possible.
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Original GTA Master-ZNR
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Wow, you really got into this, and I could appreciate that. Anyways, I read most of your post and skimmed the rest and I completely understand what you're saying. We can't dismiss really anything because...really...anything is possible. I believe that there has to be some other form of life out there and the chances of there not being one extra terrestrial race out there that isn't more intelligent than us is preposterous. We can't kid ourselves now. We also can't dismiss the fact that these possible higher intelligent beings haven’t found out a way to go as fast as the speed of light or faster. They might have even found out how to teleport themselves, find cures for diseases that we haven’t yet to accomplish curing ourselves. Obviously any living thing could become ill with cancer, seeing as cancer is simply the failure of an organ, and I believe that a higher intelligent extra terrestrial race could have found the cure. I'm pretty much open to all possibilities at least a little bit.
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Alpha
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Probably. Lots of evidence saying yes. The universe is gigantic, it's ignorant to believe we're the only ones here.
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calico131
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This topic is more about if the government withholding info on ufo's. not is aliens really exist.

Personally im not sure because i dont know how much about this topic is true. I reeally hope the answer is yes because i want to be arond when the public discovers there really are aliens.
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italianmafia23
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calico131
Feb 13 2007, 01:32 PM
This topic is more about if the government withholding info on ufo's. not is aliens really exist.

Personally im not sure because i dont know how much about this topic is true. I reeally hope the answer is yes because i want to be arond when the public discovers there really are aliens.

Good point. We have swayed a bit off course here. The subject matter of discussion was government secrecy of UFO related material, not exactly alien visitation. To be honest, it was a poll intended to record the level of ignorance and/or bias within this forum community. The reason being, the government cover-up of the UFO phenomenon is a proven fact, neither speculated nor assumed.

There is no longer any question of whether or not there is or is not a government cover-up -- It's a proven fact. However, the potential implications of such a cover-up are uncertain. Whether or not the UFO phenomenon is related to alien visitors is highly debatable, although I believe this to be the case based on the amount of quality evidence available.

Whether you accept, consider, or completely deny the ET implication of the government cover-up is irrelevant. We should be able to agree on at least one thing -- a UFO related government cover-up is a proven fact, not a speculative conspiracy theory.
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calico131
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I disagree. The reason is, if we all agreed (this forum and the world) that the government did try and cover stuff up, we wouldnt have any of this discussion. That would be like having a discussion about did the civil war really happen. So yes, these are still conspiracy theories.
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