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A point about Christianity
Topic Started: Aug 20 2007, 06:26 AM (523 Views)
Pud
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During last week I went to a seminar by Michael Ramsden (who is an Oxford lecturer) on God in relation to suffering in the world.

It was a great lecture and I actually got to go and eat dinner with the man afterwards (SQUEE).

So I asked him a question that just HAS to be asked to every lecturer that has anything to do with religion EVER.

"What is your view of science in relation to your religion?"

He said this:

Quote:
 


Let me put it this way,

Christianity denotes that everything came out of nothing by someone/thing.

The big bang theory states that everything came out of nothing by nothing!

Which seems more plausible?



Then he went on to say that the original critics of the big bang theory were the atheists, because it supported the theory that something came from nothing.

He also said that most Christians that understand this really have no problem with science, because the contradictions can mostly be accounted for...
Quote:
 

"The only people that have a problem with religious and scientific views in relation are the scientists themselves, they seem to be out to prove religion wrong in every way possible" 


Your thoughts?
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Benjamin
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I'm very open-minded when it comes to the origin of the universe. I don't deny that God created the universe (and I strongly believe that He did), but I also don't deny life being the product of the Big Bang and evolution. To me, if there was a Big Bang, it was directed by God.

I wouldn't call this a point about Christianity. Christians aren't the only theists, you know.
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Fraust
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It's quite a statement he made and it almost reaches out and brings about the question "Does anything really exist?" but not quite. =]

I like to believe in science and that there might be a higher being that's just watching a movie (our existence) that's a few trillion years long. =]
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Andrew
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Just because we have no way to explain the origin of the universe scientifically in this day and age does not mean that it won't be explained later on. People thought the world was flat for a long time, you know.

And since you're assuming that God always existed then why can't have the universe always existed without the need of a creator?

Quote:
 
"The only people that have a problem with religious and scientific views in relation are the scientists themselves, they seem to be out to prove religion wrong in every way possible"


Science is there to explain our everyday surroundings using logic. It's not out to specifically prove religion wrong, it just seems so because when religion gets into matters like creation of the universe and mankind, it just doesn't make sense. Therefore science will constantly disprove religion in these matters.

To summarize the above, science makes sense, religion (in some of its parts) doesn't. That's why science disproves religion in these parts without even wanting to.
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Paleognath
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Which if you were actually paying attention to actual content of the current UP-TO-DATE research and studies then you would know that a more widley accepted theory now is that there was something before the Big Bang thus a whole nother universe. The belief as it goes is that the universe is continously going through a "big bang" or expansion and then collapses into one point. Each time there is a Big Bang there is some sort of energy that pushes it. This could be a God or a deity or just the energy from the previous collapse.

At no point has it been held that there was nothing. The Big Bang Theory states that it started at a fixed point not nothingness.


Once again I have to agree with Andrew. In no way does science try to disprove religion, it just tries to explain the natural world using research and experiment and logic rather than through what a preacher tells us. Newton and Galileo were shunned and even casted out for their theories and now today Newon's theories (gravity, force, inertia, etc) are laws and so are Galileo's (earth orbits the sun not other way around). The Catholic Church had teached for many years that the sun orbits the earth but when Galileo publicly supported heliocentrism (sun as center of solar system) the Church eventually gave him a sentence of Inquisition for his beliefs. Just as a nice little side note, both Stephen Hawking and Albert Einstein both consider him the father of modern science. Is that not interesting? Now as a reference to the Catholic Church, the Church in general no longer acts in that way and is actually more supportive of science.


Now all you misquoters out there go ahead and misquote as you do quite often as I see. You might as well misquote this little paragraph here so you can have some fun winning your useless argument! lol
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madirishdoll
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Dya know what, this is gonna be argued till the cows come home. Everyone has their views, and I think debating it really is as pointless as trying to fight a steel wall.
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Andrew
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madirishdoll
Aug 20 2007, 11:35 PM
Dya know what, this is gonna be argued till the cows come home. Everyone has their views, and I think debating it really is as pointless as trying to fight a steel wall.

It might be impossible to disprove GOD but that's because it's impossible to disprove ANYTHING. Even the flying spaghetti monster (worship it! :P) or Russell's teapot.

Debating can however change my views about certain things as it exposes you to other opinions and beliefs. :)


terracara
 
Which if you were actually paying attention to actual content of the current UP-TO-DATE research and studies then you would know that a more widley accepted theory now is that there was something before the Big Bang thus a whole nother universe. The belief as it goes is that the universe is continously going through a "big bang" or expansion and then collapses into one point. Each time there is a Big Bang there is some sort of energy that pushes it. This could be a God or a deity or just the energy from the previous collapse.

At no point has it been held that there was nothing. The Big Bang Theory states that it started at a fixed point not nothingness.


Once again I have to agree with Andrew. In no way does science try to disprove religion, it just tries to explain the natural world using research and experiment and logic rather than through what a preacher tells us. Newton and Galileo were shunned and even casted out for their theories and now today Newon's theories (gravity, force, inertia, etc) are laws and so are Galileo's (earth orbits the sun not other way around). The Catholic Church had teached for many years that the sun orbits the earth but when Galileo publicly supported heliocentrism (sun as center of solar system) the Church eventually gave him a sentence of Inquisition for his beliefs. Just as a nice little side note, both Stephen Hawking and Albert Einstein both consider him the father of modern science. Is that not interesting? Now as a reference to the Catholic Church, the Church in general no longer acts in that way and is actually more supportive of science.


Now all you misquoters out there go ahead and misquote as you do quite often as I see. You might as well misquote this little paragraph here so you can have some fun winning your useless argument! lol


Well said, terracara. :D Another thing fanatic theists tend to twist is the beliefs of scientists such as Hawking and Einstein which you mentioned. In actuality, they were both, in essence, pantheists.
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Benjamin
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Andrew
Aug 20 2007, 08:09 PM
madirishdoll
Aug 20 2007, 11:35 PM
Dya know what, this is gonna be argued till the cows come home. Everyone has their views, and I think debating it really is as pointless as trying to fight a steel wall.

It might be impossible to disprove GOD but that's because it's impossible to disprove ANYTHING. Even the flying spaghetti monster (worship it! :P) or Russell's teapot.

Debating can however change your views about certain things.

I don't really think of debating as a means to change another's views. I just do it for fun. I know I can't make anyone agree with me, and I can argue all I want, and they still won't cave in to my opinion. It's just kind of fun to debate.
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Andrew
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Benjamin
Aug 21 2007, 02:13 AM
Andrew
Aug 20 2007, 08:09 PM
madirishdoll
Aug 20 2007, 11:35 PM
Dya know what, this is gonna be argued till the cows come home. Everyone has their views, and I think debating it really is as pointless as trying to fight a steel wall.

It might be impossible to disprove GOD but that's because it's impossible to disprove ANYTHING. Even the flying spaghetti monster (worship it! :P) or Russell's teapot.

Debating can however change your views about certain things.

I don't really think of debating as a means to change another's views. I just do it for fun. I know I can't make anyone agree with me, and I can argue all I want, and they still won't cave in to my opinion. It's just kind of fun to debate.

You misunderstood me. I meant debating has changed MY views about things. :hehe:

Edit: looking back at what I wrote before, I should have phrased it better, sorry. :P
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Paleognath
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Benjamin
Aug 21 2007, 12:13 AM
Andrew
Aug 20 2007, 08:09 PM
madirishdoll
Aug 20 2007, 11:35 PM
Dya know what, this is gonna be argued till the cows come home. Everyone has their views, and I think debating it really is as pointless as trying to fight a steel wall.

It might be impossible to disprove GOD but that's because it's impossible to disprove ANYTHING. Even the flying spaghetti monster (worship it! :P) or Russell's teapot.

Debating can however change your views about certain things.

I don't really think of debating as a means to change another's views. I just do it for fun. I know I can't make anyone agree with me, and I can argue all I want, and they still won't cave in to my opinion. It's just kind of fun to debate.

It sure is. People get so flustered since they know they can't win but then just comfort themselves by saying that no one can disprove them. It does get annoying here though when people misquote to make their points more valid when they know that it does not work that way.

Anyway the post I made here did not try to disprove anyone just made an attempt at explaining something that they clearly did not know fully.
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Pud
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I wasn't saying what he was saying was bull, I was just saying what Michael Ramsden said... Pretty convincing at the time.

This isn't an argument but a genuine question: is there any proof for the big bang, other than the universe expanding? (red shift blah blah)
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Lugiatm
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Pud
Aug 21 2007, 07:45 AM
I wasn't saying what he was saying was bull, I was just saying what Michael Ramsden said... Pretty convincing at the time.

This isn't an argument but a genuine question: is there any proof for the big bang, other than the universe expanding? (red shift blah blah)

Yes, there is. I'm afraid your friend Michael Ramsden is sadly misguided, ever heard of the Large Hadron Collider? It will attempt to replicate the circumstances directly after the Big Bang on a much smaller scale, by colliding particles with such enormous power that antimatter is created. If antimatter can be created out of nothing, then theoretically, so can matter. Take a look:

http://public.web.cern.ch/public/Content/Chapters/AboutCERN/CERNFuture/WhatLHC/WhatLHC-en.html
 
The Large Hadron Collider (LHC) is a particle accelerator which will probe deeper into matter than ever before. Due to switch on in 2008, it will ultimately collide beams of protons at an energy of 14 TeV . Beams of lead nuclei will be also accelerated, smashing together with a collision energy of 1150 TeV.
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A TeV is a unit of energy used in particle physics. 1 TeV is about the energy of motion of a flying mosquito. What makes the LHC so extraordinary is that it squeezes energy into a space about a million million times smaller than a mosquito.

The LHC is the next step in a voyage of discovery which began a century ago. Back then, scientists had just discovered all kinds of mysterious rays, X-rays, cathode rays, alpha and beta rays. Where did they come from? Were they all made of the same thing, and if so what?

These questions have now been answered, giving us a much greater understanding of the Universe. Along the way, the answers have changed our daily lives, giving us televisions, transistors, medical imaging devices and computers.

On the threshold of the 21st century, we face new questions which the LHC is designed to address. Who can tell what new developments the answers may bring?
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Pud
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That's if it works.
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