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Indoctrination of Children; What are your opinions?
Topic Started: Apr 28 2008, 01:21 PM (1,144 Views)
Crewss
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lostforwords
Apr 28 2008, 10:41 PM
Crewss
Apr 28 2008, 10:23 PM
And lostforwords, most children are not old enough to have developed an opinion on going to church. If I had a child who was 5 years old, and he didn't want to go to church, I would still make him go because I believe he/she is not old enough, nor has had enough time, to have collected their thoughts about the religion and genuinely understood the facts and principles of the religion. And we must remember that the child is only 5. If he/she can't read or write yet, how can we expect the child to know enough about the religion to have developed their own perspective of it?


Obviously if the kid is that young, then he/she won't like church. You can drag him/her there and I wouldn't see a problem with that, as like you said, they don't understand religion enough yet. It would be like dragging them to nursery.

But what if the kid was older? What if they were around 12, and they knew exactly what the religion was about? I don't think you should be making such decisions for them. If they feel like your religion isn't for them, then I feel you should let them decide what one is, or if there even is one. At this time, I see forcing them to believe in what you believe in is a form of mental abuse.

I totally agree with you there, but if the child is still a toddler and really does not have any idea on any religion whatsoever, then I see no problem with the parents impressing their beliefs on the child whilst he/she is at such a young age.
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Trav-man
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I guess parents should let their children eat whatever they want whenever they want it too. And there's no way parents should be allowed to make kids eat their vegetables. Child abuse!!! :hmm:
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Melancholic
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chiralism
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Trav-man
Apr 28 2008, 10:53 PM
I guess parents should let their children eat whatever they want whenever they want it too. And there's no way parents should be allowed to make kids eat their vegetables. Child abuse!!! :hmm:

There's a difference between real truths and subjective truths. :P
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chezpotato
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Crewss
Apr 28 2008, 03:46 PM
lostforwords
Apr 28 2008, 10:41 PM
Crewss
Apr 28 2008, 10:23 PM
And lostforwords, most children are not old enough to have developed an opinion on going to church. If I had a child who was 5 years old, and he didn't want to go to church, I would still make him go because I believe he/she is not old enough, nor has had enough time, to have collected their thoughts about the religion and genuinely understood the facts and principles of the religion. And we must remember that the child is only 5. If he/she can't read or write yet, how can we expect the child to know enough about the religion to have developed their own perspective of it?


Obviously if the kid is that young, then he/she won't like church. You can drag him/her there and I wouldn't see a problem with that, as like you said, they don't understand religion enough yet. It would be like dragging them to nursery.

But what if the kid was older? What if they were around 12, and they knew exactly what the religion was about? I don't think you should be making such decisions for them. If they feel like your religion isn't for them, then I feel you should let them decide what one is, or if there even is one. At this time, I see forcing them to believe in what you believe in is a form of mental abuse.

I totally agree with you there, but if the child is still a toddler and really does not have any idea on any religion whatsoever, then I see no problem with the parents impressing their beliefs on the child whilst he/she is at such a young age.

What? You agree with doing it to them when they're young, but not older?

Did I mention that children are very gullible and will accept without question just about everything their parents tell them?
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chezpotato
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Trav-man
Apr 28 2008, 03:53 PM
I guess parents should let their children eat whatever they want whenever they want it too. And there's no way parents should be allowed to make kids eat their vegetables. Child abuse!!!  :hmm:

Raising a child on the belief that if you don't do so and so you will go to hell is child abuse, if you ask me.

Sorry about the double post.
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lostforwords
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i dont even
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Trav-man
Apr 28 2008, 10:53 PM
I guess parents should let their children eat whatever they want whenever they want it too. And there's no way parents should be allowed to make kids eat their vegetables. Child abuse!!!  :hmm:

Vegetables and religion are two completely different things. Kids eating right and being healthy is more important than a belief. Well, I think so at least, and hope alot of other parents do aswell. :/
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Blackcat8998
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I agree with the former posts that it does matter how old the child is, if the child is too young and would rather, say, watch cartoons on a sunday morning then go to church, you'll probably end up dragging them there, kicking and screaming, I don't see much wrong with that, that's how a young child is going to act about most things when it comes between cartoons and anything else ;)
But, using the roman catholic religion as a example, because that's the only religion I know anything about really, when the child has gone through Religious Ed., first communion or confirmation (depending on the order the parish goes by), they're around twelve years old, and they know what it's about, and decide that they don't like the belief and they would rather believe in something else, I believe it's wrong to pin them down and force them to take in the information, and lock them into bringing them to church. They'll just be solid bent on hating it.
I understand that when the child's young and a bit naive in the aspects of religion that parents want to give them something to believe in, but it shouldn't be forced down their throats and they shouldn't hold a knife to the kid's throat if they, say, ask a question like 'Is god really real?' At any age.
But then, as the child gets older, even so, the parents should let off a bit, give the child some breathing space to take a good look around in the world, and make their own decision whether they want to continue in that belief or if they have their own belief.
I mean, if you believe in Freewill, then that child should have that freewill. Don't take it away by choking them with it.
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Trav-man
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Melancholic
Apr 28 2008, 03:55 PM
Trav-man
Apr 28 2008, 10:53 PM
I guess parents should let their children eat whatever they want whenever they want it too. And there's no way parents should be allowed to make kids eat their vegetables. Child abuse!!!  :hmm:

There's a difference between real truths and subjective truths. :P

There is a difference between real and subjective truths. But both the need for a good diet to maintain a healthy body and the need for a relationship with Jesus to have spiritual health are very real truths, regardless of which ones you choose to accept, or which ones you consider to be scientifically based.

Now, I believe that parents need to let their children choose their own path, but parents also have an obligation to point their children in the right direction, and there comes a time where they have to let go and let the child chart their own way through life. A child cannot do that at age 5. The entire argument that its wrong to teach your children your religious beliefs is based on nothing more than wishful thinking and rhetorical nonsense.
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CyberMunky
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Trav-man
Apr 28 2008, 11:19 PM
Now, I believe that parents need to let their children choose their own path, but parents also have an obligation to point their children in the right direction, and there comes a time where they have to let go and let the child chart their own way through life. A child cannot do that at age 5. The entire argument that its wrong to teach your children your religious beliefs is based on nothing more than wishful thinking and rhetorical nonsense.

Excuse me? Parents aren't always right, and they don't always know what's best for their child. Ergo, how do you know if they're pointing the child in the right direction as opposed to the one they themselves chose?


Quote:
 
There is a difference between real and subjective truths. But both the need for a good diet to maintain a healthy body and the need for a relationship with Jesus to have spiritual health are very real truths, regardless of which ones you choose to accept, or which ones you consider to be scientifically based.


One does not need to have a "relationship" with Jesus to have spiritual health, and any parent preaching that to their child is, in my mind, abusive. Yes, parents should teach their child right from wrong, but from what i've read on the ZB Support forum, religion doesn't define the two. It's merely set up as a cookie cutter way of life.

Your child needs to know that killing someone is wrong, but they don't need to know that they'll burn in hell for all of eternity if they choose a different lifestyle than the one you set up for them.
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Benjamin
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lostforwords
Apr 28 2008, 06:41 PM
Crewss
Apr 28 2008, 10:23 PM
And lostforwords, most children are not old enough to have developed an opinion on going to church. If I had a child who was 5 years old, and he didn't want to go to church, I would still make him go because I believe he/she is not old enough, nor has had enough time, to have collected their thoughts about the religion and genuinely understood the facts and principles of the religion. And we must remember that the child is only 5. If he/she can't read or write yet, how can we expect the child to know enough about the religion to have developed their own perspective of it?


Obviously if the kid is that young, then he/she won't like church. You can drag him/her there and I wouldn't see a problem with that, as like you said, they don't understand religion enough yet. It would be like dragging them to nursery.

But what if the kid was older? What if they were around 12, and they knew exactly what the religion was about? I don't think you should be making such decisions for them. If they feel like your religion isn't for them, then I feel you should let them decide what one is, or if there even is one. At this time, I see forcing them to believe in what you believe in is a form of mental abuse.

I don't think my parents would force Christianity on me. They'd probably try to pursuade me, but they wouldn't force me to go to church. I go to church because I want to, and I like being a Christian. I wouldn't have this joy if my parents didn't make me go to church when I was younger.

Now, (using Christianity as an example) the reason loving parents would want their child to be a Christian is because they care about and love him or her. They don't want their child to be eternally separated from God and from them.
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Sawsan
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Myself a child of a Christian woman and Muslim man, two religions which are so similar yet differ in the one aspect of God existing simultaneously of three persons, grew up with knowledge of each faith which was not forced upon me. I was willing to learn and so they each told me about their beliefs, this concludes with me having chosen Islam but that doesn't mean I do not respect other religions and are interested in the way they work.

Usually, if I were to say that I had chosen Islam out of the two, the first thing that pops into the people that I know are...that I had to and had no choice because my father was the man of the family, whatever he orders...I comply. They're deeply mistaken.

My father is a good man and Muslim but never once have I ever been forced to do something that is out of my will. Such as wear a scarf, cover my body (completely obsessed with shorts), pray five times a day, separate myself from the opposite sex etc which sadly a lot of people in Islam force their daughter to do, something which is unnecessary. He says, do what you want to do, but must you.

Most girls I know who have been through these orders only rebel.

With mum, yes, I've been to church. I often accompany her and pray if I want to. She puts holy water on my forehead at times, I also attended one Ash Wednesday with a friend who had to go, and my other friend who's a devout Atheist came along as well. We weren't accustomed to it so we found it quite odd at times, though it was interesting.

I say, teach if they want to hear it and never shove it down their throats because it will only end up going through their derrieres’ instead of staying within. If your child does not want to follow your religion, do not push them into it because the last thing you need is a false belief. May she/he be Christian, Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim, an Atheist etc. Love em', they're your kids. Religion should be of no concern when it comes to you supporting their decisions and cherishing your offspring as they are.
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Benjamin
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Sawsan
Apr 29 2008, 08:32 AM
Myself a child of a Christian woman and Muslim man, two religions which are so similar yet differ in the one aspect of God existing simultaneously of three persons, grew up with knowledge of each faith which was not forced upon me. I was willing to learn and so they each told me about their beliefs, this concludes with me having chosen Islam but that doesn't mean I do not respect other religions and are interested in the way they work.

Usually, if I were to say that I had chosen Islam out of the two, the first thing that pops into the people that I know are...that I had to and had no choice because my father was the man of the family, whatever he orders...I comply. They're deeply mistaken.

My father is a good man and Muslim but never once have I ever been forced to do something that is out of my will. Such as wear a scarf, cover my body (completely obsessed with shorts), pray five times a day, separate myself from the opposite sex etc which sadly a lot of people in Islam force their daughter to do, something which is unnecessary. He says, do what you want to do, but must you.

Most girls I know who have been through these orders only rebel.

With mum, yes, I've been to church. I often accompany her and pray if I want to. She puts holy water on my forehead at times, I also attended one Ash Wednesday with a friend who had to go, and my other friend who's a devout Atheist came along as well. We weren't accustomed to it so we found it quite odd at times, though it was interesting.

I say, teach if they want to hear it and never shove it down their throats because it will only end up going through their derrieres’ instead of staying within. If your child does not want to follow your religion, do not push them into it because the last thing you need is a false belief. May she/he be Christian, Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim, an Atheist etc. Love em', they're your kids. Religion should be of no concern when it comes to you supporting their decisions and cherishing your offspring as they are.

I agree that the love of parents for their children should be unconditional, but parents who believe so strongly in Christianity and love their children so much would not want them to be separated from God.
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chezpotato
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Benjamin
Apr 29 2008, 03:17 PM
Sawsan
Apr 29 2008, 08:32 AM
Myself a child of a Christian woman and Muslim man, two religions which are so similar yet differ in the one aspect of God existing simultaneously of three persons, grew up with knowledge of each faith which was not forced upon me. I was willing to learn and so they each told me about their beliefs, this concludes with me having chosen Islam but that doesn't mean I do not respect other religions and are interested in the way they work.

Usually, if I were to say that I had chosen Islam out of the two, the first thing that pops into the people that I know are...that I had to and had no choice because my father was the man of the family, whatever he orders...I comply. They're deeply mistaken.

My father is a good man and Muslim but never once have I ever been forced to do something that is out of my will. Such as wear a scarf, cover my body (completely obsessed with shorts), pray five times a day, separate myself from the opposite sex etc which sadly a lot of people in Islam force their daughter to do, something which is unnecessary. He says, do what you want to do, but must you.

Most girls I know who have been through these orders only rebel.

With mum, yes, I've been to church. I often accompany her and pray if I want to. She puts holy water on my forehead at times, I also attended one  Ash Wednesday with a friend who had to go, and my other friend who's a devout Atheist came along as well. We weren't accustomed to it so we found it quite odd at times, though it was interesting.

I say, teach if they want to hear it and never shove it down their throats because it will only end up going through their derrieres’ instead of staying within. If your child does not want to follow your religion, do not push them into it because the last thing you need is a false belief. May she/he be Christian, Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim, an Atheist etc. Love em', they're your kids. Religion should be of no concern when it comes to you supporting their decisions and cherishing your offspring as they are.

I agree that the love of parents for their children should be unconditional, but parents who believe so strongly in Christianity and love their children so much would not want them to be separated from God.

That's forcing, and selfish.

If you really loved your children, you wouldn't care about their beliefs, but about them.
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Benjamin
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chezpotato
Apr 29 2008, 06:19 PM
Benjamin
Apr 29 2008, 03:17 PM
Sawsan
Apr 29 2008, 08:32 AM
Myself a child of a Christian woman and Muslim man, two religions which are so similar yet differ in the one aspect of God existing simultaneously of three persons, grew up with knowledge of each faith which was not forced upon me. I was willing to learn and so they each told me about their beliefs, this concludes with me having chosen Islam but that doesn't mean I do not respect other religions and are interested in the way they work.

Usually, if I were to say that I had chosen Islam out of the two, the first thing that pops into the people that I know are...that I had to and had no choice because my father was the man of the family, whatever he orders...I comply. They're deeply mistaken.

My father is a good man and Muslim but never once have I ever been forced to do something that is out of my will. Such as wear a scarf, cover my body (completely obsessed with shorts), pray five times a day, separate myself from the opposite sex etc which sadly a lot of people in Islam force their daughter to do, something which is unnecessary. He says, do what you want to do, but must you.

Most girls I know who have been through these orders only rebel.

With mum, yes, I've been to church. I often accompany her and pray if I want to. She puts holy water on my forehead at times, I also attended one  Ash Wednesday with a friend who had to go, and my other friend who's a devout Atheist came along as well. We weren't accustomed to it so we found it quite odd at times, though it was interesting.

I say, teach if they want to hear it and never shove it down their throats because it will only end up going through their derrieres’ instead of staying within. If your child does not want to follow your religion, do not push them into it because the last thing you need is a false belief. May she/he be Christian, Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim, an Atheist etc. Love em', they're your kids. Religion should be of no concern when it comes to you supporting their decisions and cherishing your offspring as they are.

I agree that the love of parents for their children should be unconditional, but parents who believe so strongly in Christianity and love their children so much would not want them to be separated from God.

That's forcing, and selfish.

If you really loved your children, you wouldn't care about their beliefs, but about them.

They do care about them, though. Pretend like you're a Christian parent for just a second. If you had a child that you unconditionally loved to the ends of the earth, would you not cry for them when you know that their destination is hell. I don't see how it's selfish to want what's best for your child.

If you really loved your child, of course you'd care about what they believed. What if your child believed smoking was good for them? You should still love them, but you shouldn't stand by and watch him or her get lung cancer.
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chezpotato
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Benjamin
Apr 29 2008, 03:27 PM
chezpotato
Apr 29 2008, 06:19 PM
Benjamin
Apr 29 2008, 03:17 PM
Sawsan
Apr 29 2008, 08:32 AM
Myself a child of a Christian woman and Muslim man, two religions which are so similar yet differ in the one aspect of God existing simultaneously of three persons, grew up with knowledge of each faith which was not forced upon me. I was willing to learn and so they each told me about their beliefs, this concludes with me having chosen Islam but that doesn't mean I do not respect other religions and are interested in the way they work.

Usually, if I were to say that I had chosen Islam out of the two, the first thing that pops into the people that I know are...that I had to and had no choice because my father was the man of the family, whatever he orders...I comply. They're deeply mistaken.

My father is a good man and Muslim but never once have I ever been forced to do something that is out of my will. Such as wear a scarf, cover my body (completely obsessed with shorts), pray five times a day, separate myself from the opposite sex etc which sadly a lot of people in Islam force their daughter to do, something which is unnecessary. He says, do what you want to do, but must you.

Most girls I know who have been through these orders only rebel.

With mum, yes, I've been to church. I often accompany her and pray if I want to. She puts holy water on my forehead at times, I also attended one  Ash Wednesday with a friend who had to go, and my other friend who's a devout Atheist came along as well. We weren't accustomed to it so we found it quite odd at times, though it was interesting.

I say, teach if they want to hear it and never shove it down their throats because it will only end up going through their derrieres’ instead of staying within. If your child does not want to follow your religion, do not push them into it because the last thing you need is a false belief. May she/he be Christian, Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim, an Atheist etc. Love em', they're your kids. Religion should be of no concern when it comes to you supporting their decisions and cherishing your offspring as they are.

I agree that the love of parents for their children should be unconditional, but parents who believe so strongly in Christianity and love their children so much would not want them to be separated from God.

That's forcing, and selfish.

If you really loved your children, you wouldn't care about their beliefs, but about them.

They do care about them, though. Pretend like you're a Christian parent for just a second. If you had a child that you unconditionally loved to the ends of the earth, would you not cry for them when you know that their destination is hell. I don't see how it's selfish to want what's best for your child.

If you really loved your child, of course you'd care about what they believed. What if your child believed smoking was good for them? You should still love them, but you shouldn't stand by and watch him or her get lung cancer.

That's his/her choice if they want to smoke. Who am I to tell them what to do with their own bodies? I don't own them.

As for hell.

You don't know that an afterlife exists, you assume, you believe. Telling a child they will go to hell if they don't believe in a certain religion is child abuse, one of the worst kinds. If I were a religious parent, I would still raise my children in a secular environment.
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