We hope you enjoy your visit.

You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
  • 4
Indoctrination of Children; What are your opinions?
Topic Started: Apr 28 2008, 01:21 PM (1,141 Views)
SyringeX
Member Avatar
Cool.
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
chezpotato
Apr 29 2008, 08:15 PM
SyringeX
Apr 29 2008, 07:11 PM
lol so many ironies in your post. so telling someone to shutup is open minded? and no, it hasnt hurt my feelings, i just think its hilarious.

Do you even know what irony means?

I'm going to ignore the rest of your posts if you continue to post useless shit. All you've done is attacked me and not presented anything to counter. All you're saying is "lol ur dumb".

yeah, its ironic that you said i made attacks, yet you called me a prick lol.

and for the record, i never said lol ur dumb. but your argument is crap to be honest.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
chezpotato
Member
[ *  * ]
SyringeX
Apr 29 2008, 07:17 PM
chezpotato
Apr 29 2008, 08:15 PM
SyringeX
Apr 29 2008, 07:11 PM
lol so many ironies in your post. so telling someone to shutup is open minded? and no, it hasnt hurt my feelings, i just think its hilarious.

Do you even know what irony means?

I'm going to ignore the rest of your posts if you continue to post useless shit. All you've done is attacked me and not presented anything to counter. All you're saying is "lol ur dumb".

yeah, its ironic that you said i made attacks, yet you called me a prick lol.

and for the record, i never said lol ur dumb. but your argument is crap to be honest.

You still haven't presented an argument against me.

And no, attacking someone isn't restricted to "bad" words. You attacked me with your first post in this thread, anyone can see that.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
SyringeX
Member Avatar
Cool.
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
chezpotato
Apr 29 2008, 08:19 PM
SyringeX
Apr 29 2008, 07:17 PM
chezpotato
Apr 29 2008, 08:15 PM
SyringeX
Apr 29 2008, 07:11 PM
lol so many ironies in your post. so telling someone to shutup is open minded? and no, it hasnt hurt my feelings, i just think its hilarious.

Do you even know what irony means?

I'm going to ignore the rest of your posts if you continue to post useless shit. All you've done is attacked me and not presented anything to counter. All you're saying is "lol ur dumb".

yeah, its ironic that you said i made attacks, yet you called me a prick lol.

and for the record, i never said lol ur dumb. but your argument is crap to be honest.

You still haven't presented an argument against me.

And no, attacking someone isn't restricted to "bad" words. You attacked me with your first post in this thread, anyone can see that.

i attacked no one. tell me how i attacked anyone
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
chezpotato
Member
[ *  * ]
SyringeX
Apr 29 2008, 07:21 PM
chezpotato
Apr 29 2008, 08:19 PM
SyringeX
Apr 29 2008, 07:17 PM
chezpotato
Apr 29 2008, 08:15 PM
SyringeX
Apr 29 2008, 07:11 PM
lol so many ironies in your post. so telling someone to shutup is open minded? and no, it hasnt hurt my feelings, i just think its hilarious.

Do you even know what irony means?

I'm going to ignore the rest of your posts if you continue to post useless shit. All you've done is attacked me and not presented anything to counter. All you're saying is "lol ur dumb".

yeah, its ironic that you said i made attacks, yet you called me a prick lol.

and for the record, i never said lol ur dumb. but your argument is crap to be honest.

You still haven't presented an argument against me.

And no, attacking someone isn't restricted to "bad" words. You attacked me with your first post in this thread, anyone can see that.

i attacked no one. tell me how i attacked anyone

Quote:
 
I agree. But I say we go one step further, and just leave our kids on an island with only eachother so they can form their own beliefs and see how that works out. Lol, no loving parent would teach their own beliefs to their children, that is so wrong.

You're attacking my argument, without presenting a counter. Essentially, you're attacking me.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
SyringeX
Member Avatar
Cool.
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
chezpotato
Apr 29 2008, 08:24 PM
SyringeX
Apr 29 2008, 07:21 PM
chezpotato
Apr 29 2008, 08:19 PM
SyringeX
Apr 29 2008, 07:17 PM
chezpotato
Apr 29 2008, 08:15 PM
SyringeX
Apr 29 2008, 07:11 PM
lol so many ironies in your post. so telling someone to shutup is open minded? and no, it hasnt hurt my feelings, i just think its hilarious.

Do you even know what irony means?

I'm going to ignore the rest of your posts if you continue to post useless shit. All you've done is attacked me and not presented anything to counter. All you're saying is "lol ur dumb".

yeah, its ironic that you said i made attacks, yet you called me a prick lol.

and for the record, i never said lol ur dumb. but your argument is crap to be honest.

You still haven't presented an argument against me.

And no, attacking someone isn't restricted to "bad" words. You attacked me with your first post in this thread, anyone can see that.

i attacked no one. tell me how i attacked anyone

Quote:
 
I agree. But I say we go one step further, and just leave our kids on an island with only eachother so they can form their own beliefs and see how that works out. Lol, no loving parent would teach their own beliefs to their children, that is so wrong.

You're attacking my argument, without presenting a counter. Essentially, you're attacking me.

i said nothing about your argument. i presented my argument and am just defending it
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
phractured
Member Avatar
Kool like Koolaid
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Parents don't find it is forcing religion on their children, they are just raising them as they were raised, honoring their beliefs, I was raised atheist and I bet if my parents were christian i would be christian. You can't expect parents to leave their children out of their faith until they can make a choice themselves.


Its the same as my parents making me go to church so they aren't forcing atheism on me...
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
chezpotato
Member
[ *  * ]
SyringeX
Apr 29 2008, 07:26 PM
i said nothing about your argument. i presented my argument and am just defending it

You twisted my argument to make it seem like I was an idiot, like my argument was stupid. If you can't even see what you did, you must be really blind.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
SyringeX
Member Avatar
Cool.
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
chezpotato
Apr 29 2008, 08:27 PM
SyringeX
Apr 29 2008, 07:26 PM
i said nothing about your argument. i presented my argument and am just defending it

You twisted my argument to make it seem like I was an idiot, like my argument was stupid. If you can't even see what you did, you must be really blind.

oh my bad, im sorry. i didnt mean to
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Leda
Member Avatar
cARpE dIEm
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
I think parents view teaching their children religion in the same vein as teaching their children good manners and the differences between right and wrong. It's a part of their moral upbringing.

My parents were never very religious. I can't recall them ever talking about God when I was younger. Yet when I was in fourth grade they suddenly decided to start going to church and making me and my sisters go. My brother, who was older, didn't always have to attend church. Allowing him to do what he wanted just made me resent having to go to church that much more.

If parents really want children to embrace your beliefs/religion, they need to start at a young age. I remember thinking in the fourth grade, that if I hadn't needed God before then why would I need him now? I still feel that way today.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Trav-man
Member Avatar
That's Travtastic!
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
CyberMunky
 
Excuse me? Parents aren't always right, and they don't always know what's best for their child. Ergo, how do you know if they're pointing the child in the right direction as opposed to the one they themselves chose?

Of course parents aren't always right. The government is not always right. Nobody is always right! Human beings are fallible people, so NEWSFLASH, we don't live in a perfect world! It is the responsiblility of the parents to point their children in the right direction. Are they always going to get it right? Unfortunately not, but we expect them to do the best they can because there is nothing better that we have to offer. And children cannot choose a direction for their lives. They are children! They are too young, too naive, and too ignorant about the world to make those types of decisions at that stage in their lives. There is no way that we can "save" them from the natural events that their environment has on them during childhood. It's not abuse, it's a natural process that everybody goes through and it plays a fundamental role in shaping who we are.

CyberMunky
 
One does not need to have a "relationship" with Jesus to have spiritual health, and any parent preaching that to their child is, in my mind, abusive. Yes, parents should teach their child right from wrong, but from what i've read on the ZB Support forum, religion doesn't define the two. It's merely set up as a cookie cutter way of life.

Yes, one does. See, we disagree. (Why is your opinion more valid than mine?) You entire argument is self-centered, because it essentially is "You can't scientifically prove the things you believe, so it is morally wrong to for you to teach them to your children, so you should teach them what I believe, instead."

What defines right and wrong? The parents? Society? How are those better sources than a holy text? Clearly you don't know much of anything about religion, as it's not something you are able to clearly understand by "reading" about it. But congratulations, give yourself a pat on the back. Kudos to you for literacy.

chezpotato
 
You don't know that an afterlife exists, you assume, you believe. Telling a child they will go to hell if they don't believe in a certain religion is child abuse, one of the worst kinds. If I were a religious parent, I would still raise my children in a secular environment.


I know that an afterlife exists. I know that God is real. My faith is the evidence of these unseen things. I have experienced the love of God in my life and the hand of God over my life time and time again, so I know that God is real. Can I prove it to you? No, but that doesn't invalidate what I know or make it any less real. And you don't tell children they will go to hell if they don't follow a religion, because it's not that simple, and it is a sensitive issue. I have twin four-year-old brothers who are growing up in the church. They don't yet know what the sinful nature is, what Hell is, and they don't understand what Jesus did for them on the cross. But they know that Jesus is God and they pray to Him all the time. Whenever I tease them and tell them what to do too much, they're very fond of telling me "You're not the boss, Jesus is the boss!!" I remember like about 6 months ago, one of them was playing in the backyard and was getting into some things he shouldn't have been and SOMEHOW he got one of his fingers caught in a bike chain! He was crying and my mom and I were freaking out looking for something to break that chain so we could get his hand out, and in the midst of all that chaos, I heard my little brother, who was not quite 4 years old yet, saying over and over again, "Jesus, Jesus, help me!" That touched my heart. Child abuse? No.

Charlo
 
It's simply not right to teach your kids something that might not be true. People get up in arms about lying to your kids about Santa, what about lying to your kids about Jesus? You might not think of it as a lie, but any rational person can see that it could easily be untrue.

There are millions of things that might not be true, we just don't know, and yet we teach them to our children. I went to school being taught that Pluto was a planet, but apparently that wasn't true. Was that morally irresponsible of my teachers? I can remember as far back as the second grade talking about pluto and I remember my 2nd grade teacher talking about how people argued over whether or not Pluto was really a planet. Yet she still taught me that it was. I was abused! Hahahaha...

People on your side of the fence seem to have this reasoning that because something I know/believe is based on faith, it's not necessarily true, and I can't talk to others about it as if it were. I can't teach my children that God is real because I only believe that he is real by faith, and not by facts which I can prove through science. I think that more than anything, this is actually a prejudice against people who are "spiritual" or even against God. It probably sounds silly for me to say that, but I say it because the same faith that I place in the Bible on God, is the very same faith that you place in the Nutrition Facts label on the box of Oreos in your kitchen cuboard, and yet your faith in the Nutrition Facts label isn't ridiculed.

The Nutrition Facts are (I believe) required to be put on your food purchases by the FDA. There are regulations in place which make sure that you are aware of what you are eating. There's probably a long line of business people, politicans, and consumers out there who are making sure that this stuff is legit and the information you see on your Nutrition Facts label is accurate. But you don't see any of these people. You (I am assuming) don't know exactly how the system works. You've probably never thought too much about how on earth they figure out exactly how many calories are in a serving. All you really do is, when you see it on the shelf, you pick up your box of Oreos and trust that the Nutrition Facts are accurate. (Though you are probably disregarding them if that's what you're eating...hehe) You have faith in either just the label itself, or in the government. But you don't actually know that a serving of Oreos has 160 calories and 60 calories from fat. You assume that this information is correct. You probably learn to trust the Nutrition Facts on things overtime because you realize that what you eat affects your body and that it tends to correlate with what you see on the Nutrition Facts.

I read the Bible and see the story of God's redemptive hand over mankind after the Fall. I believe that God exists, I believe that He is infallible, I believe that the Bible is His Word. I can't see God, or hear an audible voice from Him. I can't physically feel Him. But I believe. I have faith in Him because I have seen the miraculous, because I have been filled with the Holy Spirit, I have had people speak prophetically over my life, and because I can hear God speaking into my heart everyday. God has been the only love I have ever known that has never once failed me. And so overtime, I have learned to place my trust in Him.

Why is my faith in God any less valid than your faith in the Nutrition Facts label?

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Charlo
Member Avatar
1337er than j00
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Trav-man
Apr 29 2008, 11:54 PM
Charlo
 
It's simply not right to teach your kids something that might not be true. People get up in arms about lying to your kids about Santa, what about lying to your kids about Jesus? You might not think of it as a lie, but any rational person can see that it could easily be untrue.

There are millions of things that might not be true, we just don't know, and yet we teach them to our children. I went to school being taught that Pluto was a planet, but apparently that wasn't true. Was that morally irresponsible of my teachers? I can remember as far back as the second grade talking about pluto and I remember my 2nd grade teacher talking about how people argued over whether or not Pluto was really a planet. Yet she still taught me that it was. I was abused! Hahahaha...

People on your side of the fence seem to have this reasoning that because something I know/believe is based on faith, it's not necessarily true, and I can't talk to others about it as if it were. I can't teach my children that God is real because I only believe that he is real by faith, and not by facts which I can prove through science. I think that more than anything, this is actually a prejudice against people who are "spiritual" or even against God. It probably sounds silly for me to say that, but I say it because the same faith that I place in the Bible on God, is the very same faith that you place in the Nutrition Facts label on the box of Oreos in your kitchen cuboard, and yet your faith in the Nutrition Facts label isn't ridiculed.

The Nutrition Facts are (I believe) required to be put on your food purchases by the FDA. There are regulations in place which make sure that you are aware of what you are eating. There's probably a long line of business people, politicans, and consumers out there who are making sure that this stuff is legit and the information you see on your Nutrition Facts label is accurate. But you don't see any of these people. You (I am assuming) don't know exactly how the system works. You've probably never thought too much about how on earth they figure out exactly how many calories are in a serving. All you really do is, when you see it on the shelf, you pick up your box of Oreos and trust that the Nutrition Facts are accurate. (Though you are probably disregarding them if that's what you're eating...hehe) You have faith in either just the label itself, or in the government. But you don't actually know that a serving of Oreos has 160 calories and 60 calories from fat. You assume that this information is correct. You probably learn to trust the Nutrition Facts on things overtime because you realize that what you eat affects your body and that it tends to correlate with what you see on the Nutrition Facts.

I read the Bible and see the story of God's redemptive hand over mankind after the Fall. I believe that God exists, I believe that He is infallible, I believe that the Bible is His Word. I can't see God, or hear an audible voice from Him. I can't physically feel Him. But I believe. I have faith in Him because I have seen the miraculous, because I have been filled with the Holy Spirit, I have had people speak prophetically over my life, and because I can hear God speaking into my heart everyday. God has been the only love I have ever known that has never once failed me. And so overtime, I have learned to place my trust in Him.

Why is my faith in God any less valid than your faith in the Nutrition Facts label?

Pluto is a different story. Nobody bases their entire life and moral system on Pluto. But, using your example, anybody who stalwartly continues to teach their kids that Pluto is a planet would be ridiculed, although probably in a joking manner because it's such a small issue. It can be okay to lie to your children about small, insignificant things, but something such as the utterly life-altering concept of religion shouldn't be forced on children. It might be disappointing as a religious parent to see your kid become an atheist, but it must be understood that they are not you, and they should make their own decisions in regard to something as serious as religion.

That said, it's the responsibility of an Atheist parent to present the possibility of a God to their kids, because God hasn't been disproved scientifically yet.

Your nutrition label example doesn't make sense either. Are you implying that the nutrition label is as accurate and truthful as the bible, simply because we can't see the people gathering the information? By law, nutrition labels have to be truthful. There was no such law governing the Bible when it was written. I place my faith in nutrition labels because I know that there was an accurate, scientific, time-tested procedure that went in to creating that label, and that the food companies would probably get slapped with a fine if they were inaccurate. You can be almost 100% certain that the nutrition label is accurate.

I have actually seen a few videos in school that show how they figure out how much fat/other stuff is in foods, that's irrelevant though. :P
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Benjamin
Member Avatar

[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Quote:
 
Entirely different issue, smoking anything doesn't guarantee death. As with any friend, I would do my best to stop them from ending their life.

Well, if I were a Christian parent, I would do all in my power to keep my child from eternal damnation. Why is that selfish and unloving?

Quote:
 
It shouldn't be us that has to prove it wrong, it should be you who has to prove it right.

I never called any other belief a lie, and I never claimed that my belief is proven truth.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Lugiatm
Member Avatar
Member
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Benjamin
Apr 29 2008, 10:27 PM
chezpotato
Apr 29 2008, 06:19 PM
Benjamin
Apr 29 2008, 03:17 PM
Sawsan
Apr 29 2008, 08:32 AM
Myself a child of a Christian woman and Muslim man, two religions which are so similar yet differ in the one aspect of God existing simultaneously of three persons, grew up with knowledge of each faith which was not forced upon me. I was willing to learn and so they each told me about their beliefs, this concludes with me having chosen Islam but that doesn't mean I do not respect other religions and are interested in the way they work.

Usually, if I were to say that I had chosen Islam out of the two, the first thing that pops into the people that I know are...that I had to and had no choice because my father was the man of the family, whatever he orders...I comply. They're deeply mistaken.

My father is a good man and Muslim but never once have I ever been forced to do something that is out of my will. Such as wear a scarf, cover my body (completely obsessed with shorts), pray five times a day, separate myself from the opposite sex etc which sadly a lot of people in Islam force their daughter to do, something which is unnecessary. He says, do what you want to do, but must you.

Most girls I know who have been through these orders only rebel.

With mum, yes, I've been to church. I often accompany her and pray if I want to. She puts holy water on my forehead at times, I also attended one  Ash Wednesday with a friend who had to go, and my other friend who's a devout Atheist came along as well. We weren't accustomed to it so we found it quite odd at times, though it was interesting.

I say, teach if they want to hear it and never shove it down their throats because it will only end up going through their derrieres’ instead of staying within. If your child does not want to follow your religion, do not push them into it because the last thing you need is a false belief. May she/he be Christian, Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim, an Atheist etc. Love em', they're your kids. Religion should be of no concern when it comes to you supporting their decisions and cherishing your offspring as they are.

I agree that the love of parents for their children should be unconditional, but parents who believe so strongly in Christianity and love their children so much would not want them to be separated from God.

That's forcing, and selfish.

If you really loved your children, you wouldn't care about their beliefs, but about them.

They do care about them, though. Pretend like you're a Christian parent for just a second. If you had a child that you unconditionally loved to the ends of the earth, would you not cry for them when you know that their destination is hell. I don't see how it's selfish to want what's best for your child.

If you really loved your child, of course you'd care about what they believed. What if your child believed smoking was good for them? You should still love them, but you shouldn't stand by and watch him or her get lung cancer.

westboro baptist church raise their kids to be violently homophobic because they love them. they believe that their children will go to hel if they don't. by the time the children are old enough to make a decision they are too filled with hate to do so. at no point do the parents believe that they are giving them a distorted outlook on life.

i am sure you believe that this type of thing is wrong. now you are seeing things from our point of view.

it is possible to produce a perfectly mentally and psychologically balanced person without the external influence of religion. i was bought up in a (mostly) secular environment, with me having the option of religion (and taking it while i was still young) but making an unbiased decision when i was old enough. and i have never killed anybody.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Benjamin
Member Avatar

[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Lugiatm
May 6 2008, 06:37 PM
Benjamin
Apr 29 2008, 10:27 PM
chezpotato
Apr 29 2008, 06:19 PM
Benjamin
Apr 29 2008, 03:17 PM
Sawsan
Apr 29 2008, 08:32 AM
Myself a child of a Christian woman and Muslim man, two religions which are so similar yet differ in the one aspect of God existing simultaneously of three persons, grew up with knowledge of each faith which was not forced upon me. I was willing to learn and so they each told me about their beliefs, this concludes with me having chosen Islam but that doesn't mean I do not respect other religions and are interested in the way they work.

Usually, if I were to say that I had chosen Islam out of the two, the first thing that pops into the people that I know are...that I had to and had no choice because my father was the man of the family, whatever he orders...I comply. They're deeply mistaken.

My father is a good man and Muslim but never once have I ever been forced to do something that is out of my will. Such as wear a scarf, cover my body (completely obsessed with shorts), pray five times a day, separate myself from the opposite sex etc which sadly a lot of people in Islam force their daughter to do, something which is unnecessary. He says, do what you want to do, but must you.

Most girls I know who have been through these orders only rebel.

With mum, yes, I've been to church. I often accompany her and pray if I want to. She puts holy water on my forehead at times, I also attended one  Ash Wednesday with a friend who had to go, and my other friend who's a devout Atheist came along as well. We weren't accustomed to it so we found it quite odd at times, though it was interesting.

I say, teach if they want to hear it and never shove it down their throats because it will only end up going through their derrieres’ instead of staying within. If your child does not want to follow your religion, do not push them into it because the last thing you need is a false belief. May she/he be Christian, Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim, an Atheist etc. Love em', they're your kids. Religion should be of no concern when it comes to you supporting their decisions and cherishing your offspring as they are.

I agree that the love of parents for their children should be unconditional, but parents who believe so strongly in Christianity and love their children so much would not want them to be separated from God.

That's forcing, and selfish.

If you really loved your children, you wouldn't care about their beliefs, but about them.

They do care about them, though. Pretend like you're a Christian parent for just a second. If you had a child that you unconditionally loved to the ends of the earth, would you not cry for them when you know that their destination is hell. I don't see how it's selfish to want what's best for your child.

If you really loved your child, of course you'd care about what they believed. What if your child believed smoking was good for them? You should still love them, but you shouldn't stand by and watch him or her get lung cancer.

westboro baptist church raise their kids to be violently homophobic because they love them. they believe that their children will go to hel if they don't. by the time the children are old enough to make a decision they are too filled with hate to do so. at no point do the parents believe that they are giving them a distorted outlook on life.

i am sure you believe that this type of thing is wrong. now you are seeing things from our point of view.

it is possible to produce a perfectly mentally and psychologically balanced person without the external influence of religion. i was bought up in a (mostly) secular environment, with me having the option of religion (and taking it while i was still young) but making an unbiased decision when i was old enough. and i have never killed anybody.

I never said that children who are raised in secular homes will be immoral. I just said that if a Christian parent doesn't raise their child to be a Christian (not just moral, but a Jesus-loving Christian), then they're depriving their child of what they believe to be eternal joy with God.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
amnestyplease
Member Avatar
tell shannon her crafts are ready
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Trav-man
Apr 29 2008, 11:54 PM
I know that an afterlife exists. I know that God is real. My faith is the evidence of these unseen things.

Then you don't know, you believe. There is a difference.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Create your own social network with a free forum.
« Previous Topic · Community Chat · Next Topic »
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
  • 4