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| Resources Rules Amendment | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 8 2016, 11:44 AM (2,893 Views) | |
| spiiike | Sep 22 2016, 09:46 AM Post #16 |
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But is that code posted anywhere on the forum? I think that's the key difference. |
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| Quozzo | Sep 22 2016, 02:34 PM Post #17 |
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By the blood of Sanguinius!
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I've got to begrudgingly agree with Ferby. He still owns the code, retains the copyright and can do what he wants with it. He can leave it up or take it down. The reason is superfluous. If displaying code on here would transfer the ownership then simply having the code fetch the actual script via AJAX would render that point moot. Just take the code down from the server and the AJAX request wont run anything. Circumvented in one line of code. Of course they do. The exact same. Its copyright. I should also mention that any code posted without a licence is not in the public domain, its not even unlicenced. It literally has no licence and no-one therefor has a licence to use it. Edited by Quozzo, Sep 22 2016, 02:42 PM.
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| Arrogant | Sep 22 2016, 04:50 PM Post #18 |
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It was uploaded to the ZetaBoards servers the second it was pasted in the wrappers and saved, so it'd still fall under the content section of the ToU. That's how ZetaBoards can display your content. Anything you give them to display, you're also granting them the right to display. HTML, CSS, and JavaScript are all posted to the service when you add them to your wrappers, and then displayed by the service when they're sent to the browser to be rendered. Edited by Arrogant, Sep 22 2016, 04:54 PM.
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| Cory | Sep 22 2016, 10:47 PM Post #19 |
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Yes, a rule that re-affirms or supersedes it seems necessary and should be appended to the 'Resource Rules' found on the Board Rules page, and probably the Submission Guidelines pinned topic found in the Codes & Modifications forum's. It is still unclear whether staff have the legal right to restore copyrighted material that was intentionally removed by the author. There is the conflict between ZetaBoards Terms of Use and the DMCA. |
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| spiiike | Sep 23 2016, 11:10 AM Post #20 |
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I think what Brandon is saying is if you post a code here on this support forum, the Terms of Use he quoted applies, ie: you grant ZB the right to restore any codes if they need to, makes sense for the reasons he said. I don't know how you're making a leap from that to "so we can copy any code from any forum" kind of logic, if I make a code exclusively for my forum and don't post it here, then someone else copying and using it would be a breach, there's a huge difference. Edited by spiiike, Sep 23 2016, 11:16 AM.
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| Arrogant | Sep 23 2016, 11:54 AM Post #21 |
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The issue is with the wording. It doesn't mention threads or posts, just content. Any content that is uploaded or posted to ZetaBoards. When you paste a code into your wrappers, you're posting/uploading that code to the ZetaBoards servers, and the ZetaBoards servers are sending your code to the browser to be displayed. There's no difference between posting a code in a thread and posting a code in your wrappers with the wording of the Terms of Use -- and that's on purpose. They need to grant themselves the right to display any and all content uploaded to their servers. The Terms of Use doesn't distinguish between boards. It only mentions "ZetaBoards", not any specific board. So if you upload your code to ZetaBoards, subjecting it to the Terms of Use, ZetaBoards retains the right to display that code on ZetaBoards. And since my board is ZetaBoards, shouldn't that mean I can have it on my board too? My board doesn't belong to me and your board doesn't belong to you. They both belong to ZetaBoards, and if ZetaBoards has the right to display content from both boards, shouldn't it follow that either board can display the other board's content? |
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| Quozzo | Sep 25 2016, 07:32 AM Post #22 |
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By the blood of Sanguinius!
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The have the right to display and store the content, but if you then revoke them of that content, do they still have that right? Although they arguably can restore any content. They do not own it or have the right to use it, nor does anyone else on the service. So while they could arguably restore the content, anyone else won't be able to use it, only marvel at it's awesomeness in a post, not the wrapper because they don't have a licence to use it. Makes me wonder why they even bothered to restore it in the first place. One could argue that displaying scripts that have been taken down, and that no one has a licence to use is advocating copyright theft, but I'l leave that for the lawyers to decide. Edited by Quozzo, Sep 25 2016, 07:36 AM.
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| Arrogant | Sep 25 2016, 06:02 PM Post #23 |
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The issue is who is "they"? The Terms of Use uses the word ZetaBoards in multiple instances, and not all of them seem to be referring to the same thing. If the ability to display content is granted to ZetaBoards, the service, doesn't that mean I can take someone else's code, paste it in my wrappers, and rely on ZetaBoards, the service, having the right to display it for me? Simply pasting it in my wrappers isn't displaying it, the service is taking what I pasted and is both saving it to their servers (which it has the right to do thanks to the Terms of Use) and displaying it (which it also has the right to do thanks to the Terms of Use). Edited by Arrogant, Sep 25 2016, 06:05 PM.
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| Ferby | Sep 26 2016, 06:11 AM Post #24 |
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I will give you the benefit of the doubt in most of this because you've played the innocent card here. I don't entirely blame you for this particular situation but progress of ZB is undeniably linked to you. And you know what, I'm okay with codes related to requests have been restored despite it being legally troublesome. But what pisses me off is the wording used by a specific staff member in a PM about it all...
The whole situation was awfully handled. I protested (which is not against any rules but I understand that - as a private company - that you have the right to tell me otherwise), I was censored, my account restricted, and then forcefully told that my codes have been backed up and may be restored against my will. It's reassuring that the community seems to understand my legal right here (even if they don't agree). As far as I'm concerned at this stage, my time working with the community here is over and the only reason I work with it anymore is just for personal development. Contributors have come and gone and now they're mostly gone. There's not enough done to protect and encourage them, and it's only made ZB's progress worse. I believe the management here only has themselves to blame, although I respect that staff members have been passionate about fighting for progress like many of us have been in the past. Also I forgot to talk about Dynamo. The issue is that user IDs are now recycled so they're no longer unique. Dynamo worked with those IDs being unique so it's slowly been degrading and breaking with IDs being used on boards unrecognised to Dynamo. It's now at a stage where it's practically unusable. Viral has been working to fix it but I think development has practically halted, and I don't blame him. I've resigned as support for Dynamo now (although I don't think he's read the email yet) so I'm not involved with it anymore. My suggestion would be to reach out to him about it. Edited by Ferby, Sep 26 2016, 06:16 AM.
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| Quozzo | Sep 26 2016, 06:58 AM Post #25 |
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By the blood of Sanguinius!
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I know what you mean. You could (arguably) display it in a post on your forum because the ToS specifies the service. What i'm saying is you cannot put it in your wrapper because you would then be using the code, for which you have no licence. Thats why I mentioned above that although ZB (arguably) can restore posts with scripts or codes or other copyrighted material, it cannot be used. Therefor ZB is contributing to copyright theft. They are actively going out of their way to restore content that allows people to use codes that have no licence. Similar to piratebay who dont use the content, they just makes it available for others to steal. The big difference is that piratebay dont have that content on their servers, but ZB do, and it even appears that they have a backup. Edited by Quozzo, Sep 26 2016, 07:02 AM.
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| Stephen | Sep 26 2016, 09:47 AM Post #26 |
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Twilight is upon me, and soon night must fall.
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There seems to be a very clear part of this topic that stems from miscommunication. First of all, while Ferby's codes were backed up, his return was never predicated on the restoration of his codes. In point of fact, exactly two topics were restored-both were restored because they were codes made to fulfill requests on this board. Any codes that Ferby removed which he contributed that did not fulfill requests were left removed. Since Ferby has shared a portion of the PM, here is what came after that explains exactly what he would need to do for the restriction to be lifted:
Brandon has it 100% correct. The restriction came about because you chose to put an image in your signature that was not appropriate. This was in fact your second warning for rude and inflammatory behavior against members and staff. The first was the verbal one I gave you in a topic in this forum. So your profile was restricted until I could speak with you later that evening. In that time, you removed the codes. Let's also be clear, both what you quoted and what I quoted above were the second PM that responded in detail to the PM you sent me. This was the first PM that I sent you:
You will notice that in both instances, the terms for your profile restriction to be lifted called for you to treat members and staff with more respect and to leave out the image. Those were my only terms. You told me directly if the profile restricted was lifted, the image was going back. You did also mention the codes were staying removed. You interpreted the codes line how you wished but you also never contacted me further. Did it ever occur to you that I simply meant we would restore your codes if you asked? Or that we would remove the topics? Instead, you'll note we simply left them as is for members to see your behavior for themselves. I backed those codes up, as I've done with others, in the event you later regretted it. But those backups remain on my hard drive. They were never brought over to this board nor uploaded anywhere. I simply assumed you weren't interested in talking any longer because you never responded further. Had you asked me what I meant, I would have told you. You have, for several months, pushed this appearance of being oppressed. You haven't been. You've been given several opportunities to simply have this lifted and move on. You went the martyr route. As is, this is the last I will address this matter. If you wish to contact me further, you know how to reach me. Now that that portion is cleared up, perhaps everyone can return to answering Brandon's questions as they specifically impact the development of ZB going forward. And since that was Ferby's number one reason for his behavior and the original point of Cory's topic, I would think that answering Brandon would therefore be a priority. |
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| Arrogant | Sep 26 2016, 02:45 PM Post #27 |
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The Terms of Use doesn't specifically mention posts. It can't, since it also needs the right to host that content on their servers as well. That's why it's worded the way it is. Any content that is posted to ZetaBoards, either through posts, the board wrappers, or some other way, is content that ZetaBoards reserves the right to display -- not just in posts, but anywhere. That means board wrappers and page source. If I write a code, and I post it to my board wrappers, I am granting ZetaBoards the right to display my code. Since the Terms of Use doesn't go into detail as to who or what ZetaBoards refers to, an interpretation of it can mean that the right to display my code is propagated to all boards, since all boards belong to ZetaBoards, are hosted by ZetaBoards, and bear the name ZetaBoards. That means any board can display my code. The board owner is granted the right to display it through the service, since the service has the right to display it and the service owns all the boards. Edited by Arrogant, Sep 26 2016, 02:47 PM.
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| Nicolas | Sep 26 2016, 03:05 PM Post #28 |
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"PLES RING IF AN RNSER IS REQIRD."
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This is where you make the incorrect leap. You grant the service certain rights. You do not grant all people who use the service those rights. ZetaBoards (as the entity) has the right to display your content. This is important, because if you inserted it... we need to be able to show it, otherwise the service couldn't work. However, you are not putting it into the public domain, or granting other users the right to use your content in ways you don't specify on other boards. For example, we enforce that themes may not be ripped - custom themes may only be used by the board they were made for. We have closed boards for stealing themes from other boards. Nicola classically restricted how her themes could be modified. The rights you grant to ZetaBoards are held by ZetaBoards and its agents - its agents are not all board owners. Those are its users. Now, please stop going down this rabbit hole of your own making. As Stephen has identified: please focus on Brandon's questions to be able to help move forward on these questions. |
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| Arrogant | Sep 26 2016, 09:04 PM Post #29 |
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Brandon didn't create this thread, Cory did. And the subject of this thread is resource rights, so my side discussion is still in line with the point of the thread. The Terms of Use on content: "Any content uploaded or posted to ZetaBoards may be displayed on a forum by ZetaBoards. You grant ZetaBoards the right to display and store the Content you provide." Any content uploaded or posted to the service may be displayed on a forum by the service. You grant the service the right to display and store the content you provide. Board owners don't own their boards. Those belong to the service, as it is the service that is both storing and displaying the content of those boards. For the service to be able to do that, it needs permission from the person uploading or posting that content -- that is what the Terms of Use is there for. By using the service, you're agreeing to its terms. If I write a code and post it to the service, the service is granted the right to display that code. Not other board owners, but the service. However, other board owners aren't storing or displaying content. The service is doing that, and if the service has the right to display my code, any board should also have that right given that all boards belong to the service and the Terms of Use isn't specific enough to say that it retains the right to display content only on the board it was posted to. Of course, you're right about themes.. but that doesn't change anything because of sections 5 and 6 in the Terms of Use (basically allowing the service to do whatever it wants for any reason, or even no reason at all). That's the crux of the issue though: by granting itself the right to do whatever it wants with content on its servers, ZetaBoards isn't fostering an environment where people like Cory of Ferby want to help the service as anything they contribute is then taken for granted, pushing them out of the picture entirely whenever the staff deem that necessary. It's all well and good for the service to exercise it's rights when protecting copyrights, but we've clearly seen that it isn't above ignoring those copyrights when it so chooses, alienating the very people it relies on to create content (resources and the like that others use on their boards). |
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| Nicolas | Sep 26 2016, 09:38 PM Post #30 |
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"PLES RING IF AN RNSER IS REQIRD."
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Once again, you've made the same leap in error. You could use your same argument for themes. "ZetaBoards is still displaying/storing this theme, even though I ripped it to my board instead of the board it was made for." "ZetaBoards is still displaying/storing this code/post/story/article, even though it was only posted on or used for this one specific board and I ripped it to my own." No. That's not how this works. Those users don't have the right to insert that content to their ZetaBoards forums. ZetaBoards, the entity, has the right to display that content. Stanley-the-board-owner doesn't have the right to take any content from one place on the software and put it in the place they want it without permission. That's different. Section 5 & 6 of the Terms of Use are fairly standard, boilerplate, language that you would find on any similar service online. |
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